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The phenomenon of "As of ____" when the source is no longer from the present

I've noticed this issue quite often, and think it could be a widespread bug on Wikipedia. Basically, at the time of writing, someone used a recently-published source to cite a claim, and in making the claim, said it was true "as of" then.

Fast forward a year or even a month (if the claim was made for that month), and now Wikipedia is possibly purveying false information! For example, if it said "As of August 2021", unless it's updated with a new source in September (which of course it never is), as soon as it is September, it's a claim that could be false, and definitely isn't verified. As soon as it is 2023, anything that said "As of 2022" and isn't updated, could be false, and isn't verified.

On the other hand, if editors were to say "By 2022" and "By August 2021", etc., all of this is avoided. It's true to eternity, or until updated. I'm posting this as a call to arms to editors to fix this pervasive issue, and also as a plea to stop propagating it. That is all. Noble Metalloid (talk) 16:05, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi @Noble Metalloid, welcome to the Teahouse. There is guidance here, here and here, but the gist of it is that we actually encourage the use of "as of" (there's even a template for it), because it tells the reader the information was correct "as of" a certain date, and may no longer be correct after that date. It doesn't mean the information was correct on that date and for all time afterwards. You can use alternative wording in your own writing, of course (or you can challenge the guidance - that's almost always an option in these parts!). 199.208.172.35 (talk) 16:17, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, thanks for the links. I think "In ___", rather than "By ____", is actually the most neutral way to make a claim. I think there are several dimensions of the issue that explain my frustration: 1. someone cherrypicks a year, uses the "as of" language, even if the claim is no longer true today 2. someone innocently documents a trend that reached an apex that year, that was no longer true as of the next year, but the language implies otherwise 3. A lot of time passes, and the language extrapolates the claim across a huge swath of time, and the claim eventually becomes a load of hot air. I'll take my manifesto to those respective pages. I see what you mean though...it also matters what follows the phrase...if you say "As of 2022, Noble Metalloid is the best Wikipedia editor", it implies it is true to the present, whereas "As of 2022, Noble Metalloid was the best Wikipedia editor" has less of an extrapolation implication. Noble Metalloid (talk) 16:24, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

True, and I think all of the examples on those pages use the past tense for that very reason. It's hard to make sure articles get updated when needed, so using the most precise, least time-dependent wording possible is a good thing. Also, it's clear that 199.208.172.35 is the best Wikipedia editor as of this moment, but that's a side issue. 199.208.172.35 (talk) 16:39, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

I thought it was me, but per WP:AGF I'll take your word for it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:03, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

@Noble Metalloid I think you have a good point, actually, and some of your alternative solutions may be better. I've never liked 'As of' that much, especially if it's used with the present tense, not the past tense. I'd suggest presenting some well-worded examples to show problems and alternative phraseology. But it's important to remind you that you are nevertheless welcome to make changes where you feel the deployment of that phrase is not appropriate, and that Wikipedia:Asof#Usage guidelines does actively encourage future updating. To that end, Template:Category as of allows you to find and update those pages, or fix them in whatever way is appropriate. Nick Moyes (talk) 17:57, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

@Noble Metalloid "As soon as it is 2023, anything that said "As of 2022" and isn't updated, could be false, and isn't verified." I disagree with that statement. If an article says "As of 2022, the population was 8000", then in 2023, it is still true the population was 8000 as of 2022. You seem to like "In" and "By" better, but I think "As of" is synonymous with those phrases. 73.127.147.187 (talk) 06:12, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

@User:Noble Metalloid, @User:Nick Moyes and @User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång It's serendipitous to see this being discussed because I am currently trying to explain why the use of past tense is correct to people who guard WikiIslam. See Talk:WikiIslam#Use_of_past_tense_with_As_of I am not trying to forum shop here but it would be great if y'all could chime with your valuable thoughts. NebulaOblongata (talk) 12:53, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Deletion - EdUBudgie Linux

I decided to create a wikipedia page a month ago about software that I work on. I marked it as something that I work on so that there is transparency. I opened a draft page. a month later it is deleted. The person said that it doesnt conform to standards - which I know - it is a DRAFT and hasnt even been worked on. My understanding was that we have 6 months for a draft page? This is literally saved in my bookmarks to work on in the coming month, it is a DRAFT, and it was deleted. Can someone please explain this? are things jsut deleted randomly?? Teacheradamodix (talk) 06:04, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, @Teacheradamodix, and welcome to the teahouse! Your draft appears to of been deleted under G2 of the speedy deletion criteria. I would recommend contacting the deleting administrator (in this case, Liz) if you feel that this was a mistake. Have a great day! HenryTemplo (talk) 08:01, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Note for completeness: I see that Liz has undeleted [1] and has removed the CSD tag. She and the OP have discussed it on her talk page. ⁓ Pelagic ( messages ) 20:40, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

TV Films which are actually 2 episode TV Series

Over the years I've noticed that some British TV series which consist of 2 episodes, and occasionally 3 episodes, get added to IMDb and Wikipedia, as TV films when they aren't films, as the 2+ episodes, sometimes with episode titles too, and 2+ sets of credits suggest.

I've corrected quite a few 2 episode British productions on IMDB over the last few years (all of which I've forgotten, apart from the one I've nearly finished correcting on IMDB right now) by changing them from TV films to TV series along with moving all the credits to their respective episodes, and checking them along the way.

However I'm not sure if I should rename the articles about those British 2 episode TV series on Wikipedia too, from TV films to TV series which is what they actually are.

Should they be renamed from TV films to TV series, or are the guidelines about 2 episode TV series different on Wikipedia? Danstarr69 (talk) 18:15, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello @Danstarr69, I think the best place to ask this question would be the talk page of a relevant Wikiproject, like WP:FILM, or WP:TELEVISION. Regards. Lightbluerain (Talk💬 Contribs✏️) 11:16, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

How to specify vertical alignment of images with thumbs?

Hi! I'm trying to figure out how to keep images contained in subheadings, as the location of the images on the page I'm working on aren't corresponding to the section they belong to. I've looked at the Extended Image Syntax Page and the Help Images page in MediaWiki but it appears that vertical alignment commands only worked on frameless images? I was wondering if there was a way to make my images in thumbs float to the right, with the text being at the top and the next section not starting until after the image? One way I thought to do that was by just adding a lot of enters but I'm concerned that won't look the same across different devices? I did it for the first section just so you can get an idea of what I was trying for. Thank you so much! Stringbeans688 (talk) 19:18, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

@Stringbeans688 Have you tried using {{clear}} at the bottom of each section? That te,plate forces clear space before the next section and its related image displays. The amount of space is determined by the amount of overlap of the image above it. So you should get nice, neat alignment. Nick Moyes (talk) 19:47, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

It works, thank you so much!!

Stringbeans688 (talk) 23:02, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

You're welcome. Thanks for the feedback. Nick Moyes (talk) 21:47, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Is there a limit to how many people I can add to the "notable people" section of a town's page?

Hi, I'm currently updating the page for my town, South Kingstown, Rhode Island, and I was wondering if there's a limit to the amount of people I can put in the "notable people" section. I am considering just putting everyone from Category:People from South Kingstown, Rhode Island into the "notable people" section, but idk if that would be allowed or not, especially considering it's like 60 people and that's not even everyone from SK who has a wiki page about themself. SusImposter49 (talk) 22:41, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

I may be out of date about this, SusImposter49, but the last time I looked there was no guideline for this. When investigating longish lists of "notable people" (people who demonstrably are notable, as well as those who've improbably got articles, or just parts of articles, about themselves), I start by seeing whether the articles about them provide clear evidence of a connection to the place. Often the articles do not. If not, I remove them. For each of those who remain, I add one or more references, such that reference #24 will verify that "Joe Bloggs (1897–1949), paleontologist²⁴" (which itself is quite likely to require more than one reference) was born in or lived in, South Kingstown. If this sounds laborious, it is; but you only need to fact-check and reference three or so of these notables at a time, day after day.... -- Hoary (talk) 23:17, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

and sometimes so many people are notable you end up with List_of_Georgetown_University_alumni Slywriter (talk) 01:00, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Pfft. I quickly noticed some surprises, Slywriter. As an example, some bloke whose claim to our attention is that he was "Grandson of Dr. Samuel Mudd; led efforts to posthumously rehabilitate his grandfather's name". I'm all for rehabilitating the names of the unjustly censured, but surprised that this would prompt an article. So I clicked on what appeared to be a link to one Richard Mudd. It wasn't: it was instead a link to one section within the article on grandpa Samuel. To be fair, the surrounding entries do have their own articles -- but a high percentage of these articles are about people whose claims to notability seem pretty feeble. It's almost as if there'd been a major effort to increase the "profile" of Georgetown U. -- Hoary (talk) 02:22, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Hoary (sharpens pruning shears) Hmm, I may have to take a deeper look at these lists. There's a few of them floating around, though Georgetown is the largest I have noticed so far. Slywriter (talk) 02:30, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

@Slywriter I don't personally think that that list adds any encyclopedic value to WP. Who would consult it, and why? 73.127.147.187 (talk) 07:00, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

thank you for the information sir! SusImposter49 (talk) 01:49, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

The guideline is at WP:LISTPEOPLE, but it doesn't really add anything to what others have said above. Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:23, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

@SusImposter49: Like how usual summary style works, I'm assuming you'd add to the city article until the list becomes too long (I would subjectively put that as taking up too much space, maybe longer than a screen on a computer monitor), and at that point split it to a List of people from place article, and use a {{main article}} template on the city article. For example, Toronto#Notable_people directs you to List_of_people_from_Toronto. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 01:27, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Yes, a good idea, PerfectSoundWhatever. Unfortunately, List of people from Toronto isn't sorted helpfully and has virtually no referencing, so it's a very poor model for SusImposter49 to follow. List of people from Montreal is just as bad, List of people from London, Ontario is even worse (no referencing) -- by this point I was too depressed to want to keep looking for a better Canadian model. -- Hoary (talk) 02:49, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

@Hoary: Good point, List of people from Toronto is a pretty bad example for sourcing now that you mention it. It wouldn't be too difficult to fix these articles, it's just probably extremely tedious. (I've fixed shorter sections like these in high school articles, by searching their name in quotes along with the place, I can't imagine doing that for hundreds of people!) — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 03:53, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Notable? NFP

Morning everyone,

I work for an event management organisation who works closely with an NFP (ANZMHA, https://anzmh.asn.au). They're one of the main providers of professional development through conferences in Australia for mental health sector professionals. Their events host up to 400 professionals per event, providing them with 13-15 hours of CPD per person/event. Meaning they facilitate between 41,600 and 48,000 professional development hours to mental health professionals every year.

I'm wondering if that's notable enough? The problem is that the association behind it isn't really ever "in the spotlight", as the conferences themselves are what most people in the sector are aware of rather then the association (i.e. International Mental Health Conference, Stop Domestic Violence Conference, Indigenous Wellbeing Conference, etc.). Would it still be worthy of a Wikipedia article? If so, would I be able to create one (I work with them, and I realise you can't post articles about persons close to you).

Thanks for your help.

Cheers, Lorien LorienANZMHA (talk) 01:10, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

hi @LorienANZMHA and welcome to the teahouse! notability and your ability to create an articlr is determined purely through the reliable sources you get that are independent from your company, not whether or not how big they are or whether they are in the spotlight (although either increases the likelihood of there being sources). you can use the following links to find reliable sources, probably through news: Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · NYT · WP Library. happy editing! 💜  melecie  talk - 01:35, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Also, @LorienANZMHA, please take some time to review WP:PAID and make an appropriate declaration on your user page (located at User:LorienANZMHA). Thank you for being upfront about your COI and asking questions before jumping into the deep end of article creation! 174.21.23.32 (talk) 01:39, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

For the final part of your questions, LorienANZMHA, it is acceptable for paid editors to create draft articles via the appropriate process. Note that volunteer editors (the majority of us) will expect a certain degree of competence from you: we are not here to clean up after you, although will always try to help if you have additional general questions. Mike Turnbull (talk) 13:38, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Archive bot template

Are we free to add an archive template by a bot taking responsibility on any talk page? Goodvibes500 (talk) 02:35, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

@Goodvibes500 Yes, except other editors' User Talk pages. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 07:42, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

life

confusing life 115.242.150.130 (talk) 05:27, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

The teahouse is for questions not for discussions.`~HelpingWorld~` ^(👽🛸) 08:49, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

If you want to make threads, this isn't the place, go to an image board or something. Casint (talk) 16:15, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

That was a bit harsh, but correct. 73.127.147.187 (talk) 06:26, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Combine general and inline references into a single reflist

Please see the references section of 1974 ARFU Asian Rugby Championship. There is a reference related to the entire document numbered as 11, and other inline references numbered from 1 to 11 (different 11 from the above). I would like to combine them into a nicely formatted single reference list numbered from 1 to 12. How can I implement this?

This is my first time writing something in the village pump. If I wrote in the wrong bulletin or there is something inappropriate, please let me know. Regpath (talk) 06:06, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi @Regpath Ref #11 is not actually a general reference for the entire article. I'm afraid a misplaced reference is probably the least of that article's problems, it requires quite a bit of fixing. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 07:54, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi @Dodger67 If you read the article and the reference very carefully, then you would think it is not a general reference. But that is just an example of whether it is correct or not. I just wanted to know how to make the combined list. I should have added this comment when I first ask this question. Thanks. Regpath (talk) 08:22, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Moved ref to Finals section David notMD (talk) 08:49, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

An unusual feature of that article is that most of the references aren't cited in support of anything, they're links to further relevant information. Maproom (talk) 09:08, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Maproom I'd call it a fault rather than a feature. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 14:42, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Actually it is incorrect. The reference you moved is not for Finals only. It is a reference to a broader section. Regpath (talk) 04:44, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

FYI

 – Merged here. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 04:52, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Combined reference list

Please see the references section of 1974 ARFU Asian Rugby Championship. There is a reference related to the entire document numbered as 11, and other inline references numbered from 1 to 11 (different 11 from the above). I would like to combine them into a nicely formatted single reference list numbered from 1 to 12. How can I implement this?

I'm sorry for the same question. But the previous answers are not what I wanted to know, though I appreciate their sincere help. What I want to know is just how to make such a combined reference list. That'is just a technical question, not about the specific article that I mentioned. That was just an exmple. I am not asking about the specific article. It is just a 'general' question. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Regpath (talk • contribs)

Regpath, see this guideline on general references. As it says, "If both cited and uncited references exist, their distinction can be highlighted with separate section names, e.g., "References" and "General references"." But as it also says, on enWP we very much prefer that it be integrated into the article text with footnotes. 174.21.23.32 (talk) 13:36, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Suggestions for improving a draft article (academic/artist biography)

Good Morning,

I hope everyone is well! I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions, all of which are welcome, about how I could make my draft article more publishable: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:William_John_Titus_Bishop

Many thanks and Kind Regards, John JohnEricHiggs (talk) 07:53, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

• There are multiple things wrong with your article such as references and the layout. First of all, google is not a source and second some of your sources need to be full such as your fifth ref, look at your other refs for help. Happy editing!`~HelpingWorld~` ^(👽🛸) 08:53, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

  Thanks for this - I've corrected the references! What else would you suggest? JohnEricHiggs (talk) 09:11, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

  hi @JohnEricHiggs! I'd also suggest using {{Infobox artist}} in the article to detail their information instead of a table, which automatically does the infobox code for you and allows you to set it up much more easily than using a table. to learn how infoboxes work, please check Infobox. happy editing! 💜  melecie  talk - 10:33, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

  @JohnEricHiggs Most critically, I can't see anything that shows this person meet sour notability critieria - neither WP:NMUSIC, WP:NBIO, or WP:NACADEMIC. All the rest of the issues are irrelevant if those criteria cannot be met. As I see it he's released some music (any awards or chart hits for them?) and published some poetry (used by one university where he once taught). I fear you're going to need to find much stronger sources to support Notability. I also believe you have an undeclared Conflict of Interest in writing about Bishop. Please ensure you declare it before continuing to edit. Sorry about that. Nick Moyes (talk) 12:05, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

  Hi Nick, thanks for the comment.

  I have noted that I have no conflict of interest. I have no connection to the topic. I have mentioned some awards in the draft and the publication mentioned is an academic text. Please look again, but I believe the criteria for Academic notability is met. I will re-dreaft some of the material accordingly. Many thanks. JohnEricHiggs (talk) 12:15, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

JohnEricHiggs In my opinion, the music career is not notable, the academic career is not notable, and the mentioned awards are minor. David notMD (talk) 13:25, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi David,

Thank you for your comments. I think it's a lot to ask that someone be notable for both academic activity and popular music. I will go over the criteria as mentioned here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_(academics).

Kind Regards and Many Thanks JohnEricHiggs (talk) 13:48, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

One of the press releases here [2] appears to have been written by a John Higgs, yet you say you have no conflict of interest? Theroadislong (talk) 13:54, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

@JohnEricHiggs Yes, that would be a lot to ask, but the subject doesn't need to be notable by both criteria. David notMD, an experienced editor, says the subject is not notable by either criterion. If you can establish notability by either criterion, then an article is possible. 73.127.147.187 (talk) 05:52, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Issues with Recent Changes filter

Good day!

When patrolling recent changes, I often have the issue that some groups of filters are not showing up. For example, I load the page, it loads my default filters, but omits the "bad faith" or "has problems" filters. When opening the filter selector, they are not visible there either. I often have to reload the page multiple times for all filters to show up.

Does anyone have a solution for this Problem? Or is it just a general Wikipedia problem?

Thank you. Kvoou ❯❯❯ Talk 08:03, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I too face this problem many times. I think it's just a glitch... Kpddg ^(talk) 10:01, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Paid Wikipedia

Why does not Wikipedia pay its users to edit pages, I throught editing is paid. Birgontaur (talk) 12:03, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello Birgontaur. Contributions to Wikipedia are made solely on a volunteer basis. No one is paid to edit. Kpddg ^(talk) 12:22, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. Birgontaur (talk) 12:22, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

User:Birgontaur - You may have been misled by companies that provide the "service" of creating Wikipedia pages for hire for companies and individuals and who advertise that "service". They are not associated with Wikipedia except as editors. Wikipedia strongly discourages using them, and has conflict of interest rules requiring that they disclose their paid status. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:08, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Note: User blocked for sockpuppetry Kpddg ^(talk) 14:50, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Editing

hello,I would love to know how to add color or designs to my name after I sign (e.g like that of @Kpddg). Uricdivine (talk) 13:06, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi Uricdivine. There's general advice at WP:FANCYSIG. I suggest you don't go overboard with your signature as that can make it difficult for others to see and/or work out who you are. Mike Turnbull (talk) 13:28, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Messy sandbox

I'm totally confused about the Sandbox feature. From the directions about creating one, I thought I had to do so with a new name for it. But now I think I've got 2 basic user names, and I want to delete the one I created for my sandbox. Then I want to create my sandbox properly. Helllpppp! Augnablik (talk) 13:43, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

To create your main sandbox, Augnablik just click on this link, add something, and "publish changes". Editors can have more than one sandbox if they like but for the moment you probably don't need that. Welcome to Wikipedia! Mike Turnbull (talk) 14:01, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Incidentally, if you think you've got two Usernames (i.e. accidentally created two accounts), can you let us know the name associated with the one not called "Augnablik"? Then I or someone else can provide further advice. Mike Turnbull (talk) 14:06, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

I think my other sandbox was Augnablik-box or Augnabliksandbox or something like that. I went to a place I copied the name when I set it up, but now it doesn't look right because it's only BOX. Hope you can find it.

Thank you so much for creating the right sandbox. Augnablik (talk) 17:16, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

I went and created the sandbox for you, since there is a template that can be added at the top which is useful and I've added it. So now see User:Augnablik/sandbox, a blue-link. Mike Turnbull (talk) 14:12, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

I have checked using Special:ListUsers and it would appear you created User:Augnablikbox (not a sandbox but a user page). That new account has made no edits but depending how you did it may have an associated password. User accounts usually can't be deleted because Wikipedia needs to keep a record of who edited what. However, I don't know the policy about deleting a never-used account. Anyway, my advice is to ignore that Username and stick to editing when logged on to Augnablik. Mike Turnbull (talk) 20:54, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Welcome to the Teahouse, @Augnablik. On another note, I see you've been inserting commented-out remarks into various articles, and are confused about why they've been removed. The reason is that cleanup efforts on Wikipedia should be done through the use of templates or comments on talk pages, not in-line "invisible" commentary; you can see a long, long list of clean-up templates here - you'll get the commonly used ones memorized if you stick around long enough, but for now, just scrolling through the list and looking for a template that matches the problem is probably the best approach. 199.208.172.35 (talk) 14:09, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks again. I discovered that today on my own, but the need to use a template was not at all clear as far as I recall in any instructions. If you have any clout with the higher-ups in Wikipedia who design editor training, I think it would be very helpful to really explain how to do this sort of thing early on as an editor. Augnablik (talk) 17:32, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

The only folks who might meet the definition of "higher-ups who design editor training" are the ones in the WMF Growth team, with whom I have absolutely no clout whatsoever. The Wikipedia Adventure was put together to try to help newcomers, other people place welcome messages with useful links onto user talk pages, and of course there are places like this one, where new folks are often directed so they can ask questions and (hopefully) get friendly, helpful answers. Feel free to drop by and ask any more questions you may have, @Augnablik! 199.208.172.35 (talk) 17:46, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

I see. Well, then, I guess I could drop into the WMF Growth team and ask directly. Augnablik (talk) 19:10, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Remove conflict of interest

Hi how to i remove a conflict of interest on my page as I declared it accidentaly, I tried to fix it now ive been told there is a risk of ban of editing. This was a gueniune error could you please help. Stanford M (talk) 15:57, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

I think you removed it correctly. On another note, if you want to delete a page in your userspace, add {{db-u1}} to the top of it. weeklyd3 (message me | my contributions) 15:58, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

And also, it would be nice if you kept it there if you actually had a conflict of interest. weeklyd3 (message me | my contributions) 15:59, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Removing is far more likely to get you banned. Your COI is not why you were warned about banning, it was being disruptive to the talk page of the heavily promotional draft. Slywriter (talk) 16:05, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Note: Both a page in mainspace (The Shared Learning Trust) and draftspace (Draft:The Shared Learning Trust) exist. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 16:14, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Stanford M, You can remove the COI tag, as you did, but it looks highly suspicious that you added the COI tag back in October of 2021 and only just requested to remove it after a draft you created was rejected at AfC and the same day you created a page in main space with the same name. You edited for months with the tag and didn't see the issue with having it on your user page? The only change now is the article you created is being challenged by other editors. Even assuming good faith you can't see how that would look odd to an outside neutral observer? --ARoseWolf 16:28, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Can someone please help me put the following blockquote into 2 columns

Gather thy greatness round, Arion! Stand in state,
As when the banqueting thrilled conscious—like a rose
Throughout its hundred leaves at that approach it knows
Of music in the bird—while Corinth grew one breast
A-throb for song and thee; nay, Periander pressed
The Methymnæan hand, and felt a king indeed, and guessed
How Phœbus' self might give that great mouth of the gods
Such a magnificence of song! The pillar nods,
Rocks roof, and trembles door, gigantic, post and jamb,
As harp and voice rend air—the shattering dithyramb!
So stand thou, and assume the robe that tingles yet
With triumph; strike the harp, whose every golden fret
Still smoulders with the flame, was late at fingers' end—
So, standing on the bench o' the ship, let voice expend
Thy soul; sing, unalloyed by meaner mode, thine own,
The Orthian lay; then leap from music's lofty throne;
Into the lowest surge make fearlessly thy launch!
Whatever storm may threat, some dolphin will be stanch!
Whatever roughness rage, some exquisite sea-thing
Will surely rise to save, will bear—palpitating—
One proud humility of love beneath its load—
Stem tide, part wave, till both roll on thy jewell'd road
Of triumph, and the grim o' the gulf grow wonder-white
I' the phosphorescent wake; and still the exquisite
Sea-thing stems on, saves still, palpitatingly thus,
Lands safe at length its load of love at Tænarus,
True woman-creature!

𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 17:40, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Try this:

Gather thy greatness round, Arion! Stand in state,
As when the banqueting thrilled conscious—like a rose
Throughout its hundred leaves at that approach it knows
Of music in the bird—while Corinth grew one breast
A-throb for song and thee; nay, Periander pressed
The Methymnæan hand, and felt a king indeed, and guessed
How Phœbus' self might give that great mouth of the gods
Such a magnificence of song! The pillar nods,
Rocks roof, and trembles door, gigantic, post and jamb,
As harp and voice rend air—the shattering dithyramb!
So stand thou, and assume the robe that tingles yet
With triumph; strike the harp, whose every golden fret
Still smoulders with the flame, was late at fingers' end—
So, standing on the bench o' the ship, let voice expend

Thy soul; sing, unalloyed by meaner mode, thine own,
The Orthian lay; then leap from music's lofty throne;
Into the lowest surge make fearlessly thy launch!
Whatever storm may threat, some dolphin will be stanch!
Whatever roughness rage, some exquisite sea-thing
Will surely rise to save, will bear—palpitating—
One proud humility of love beneath its load—
Stem tide, part wave, till both roll on thy jewell'd road
Of triumph, and the grim o' the gulf grow wonder-white
I' the phosphorescent wake; and still the exquisite
Sea-thing stems on, saves still, palpitatingly thus,
Lands safe at length its load of love at Tænarus,
True woman-creature!

MrOllie (talk) 19:11, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. Do you know how I can reduce the space between the columns? 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 21:50, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Ficaia I think that the whole point of the {{Columns-start}} and related templates is that they occupy the full width available to each reader's browser. Hence there should be no need to force anything. Mike Turnbull (talk) 21:58, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

@Ficaia In that two-column version, many of the individual lines wrap (within its column) on my 10 inch Android tablet in portrait mode. If you force 2 columns, I predict it would look pretty bad on a smartphone. 73.127.147.187 (talk) 06:00, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

@Ficaia Also, in Fifine_at_the_Fair (formatted in one column) many of the lines wrap on the same 10 inch tablet, probably because there are pictures to the right. 73.127.147.187 (talk) 06:35, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

How to remove an extra line of space

In an article I'm editing, there are several places where there's an extra line of space between alerts such as "See XXX for further information." In one case, I noticed an initially hidden command like this:

+ INSERT

Nothing I do is getting rid of these extraneous lines. What's the right way to do it? Augnablik (talk) 17:47, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

@Augnablik: Welcome to the Teahouse. From what you're describing, you're using the visual editor. You don't; those are included to make inserting in those areas (usually between templates) easier. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 18:35, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Are you saying that to edit this sort of thing, I should be in the other view (what was it called, maybe Code View?)... Augnablik (talk) 19:04, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

@Augnablik: What I'm saying is if you don't want to deal with that, edit in the source editor. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 19:24, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

What does a symbol like this mean? The vertical bar is a little taller in the symbol I'm trying to describe, but not much.

<---| Augnablik (talk) 17:51, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

@Augnablik, can you link the article you're trying to edit (or just tell us the name)? 199.208.172.35 (talk) 17:53, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Unfortunately not, because I decided to get rid of the symbol. Or in this case, symbols, plural, one at the beginning of a phrase an the other at the end. I saw the same symbol in another article I edited when I first began editing in Wikipedia and wondered about it then.

From your question, I guess you too aren't quite sure what it means. Next time I run into the symbol, I'll post it here for you. Thanks for taking interest in this. Augnablik (talk) 19:03, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

@Augnablik, were you talking about this line in Punjabi culture?

<!-- Include

That was part of a hidden comment, which you removed, asking that the fact it followed be more precisely dated. 199.208.172.35 (talk) 19:12, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Yes, that's the article in which the two such symbols were located. I don't recall which of the other articles I edited had the other single symbol. Oh, dear, I'd better put the comment back. Augnablik (talk) 19:37, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

@Augnablik, a better solution would be to replace it with a template like {{as of}} - as I said before, hidden comments are much less useful to cleanup efforts. 199.208.172.35 (talk) 19:45, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Is there a permitted way to ask other wikipedia editors to weigh in on AfD debates

Dear friends. Thank you to each of you for making Wikipedia such a healthy and useful tool. With the guidance of some helpful veteran wiki editors, I have been able to start a few wikipedia articles. Invariably one of my entries is now in an Afd (article for deletion) desiussion. In my opinion, the answer should be Keep, but of course I am biased. :-)

I know that you are not supposed to canvas people to take a side in an Afd debates. However I have seen in one of the category portals that some editors ask for help from other editors to weigh in on Afd debates. Is that a normative practice? Is there a page or group on wikipedia where you can ask others for help for Afd? Similarly, if I made relationship with another experienced editor, am I allowed to ask her to give an honest opinion in the Afd debate?

Any guidance you can give would be very appreciated. I thank you in advance. PaulPachad (talk) 17:52, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi PaulPachad and thanks for asking. I suggest you read Wikipedia:Canvassing#Appropriate_notification (as well as the rest of that policy page). Shantavira|^{feed me} 18:05, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

@Shantavira Thank you Shantavira|^{feed me}. I appreciate the reference. This was very helpful. The article mentions asking for help in:

A central location (such as the Village pump or other relevant noticeboards)

Is that true even for an AfD debate? Which central location is appropriate to ask for others to weigh in? (aside from the wikiproject page)

Thank you in advance. PaulPachad (talk) 18:53, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Well it says A central location (such as the Village pump or other relevant noticeboards) for discussions that have a wider impact such as policy or guideline discussions. I wouldn't expect that to apply to an Afd discussion. Shantavira|^{feed me} 09:38, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

What happens if two editors keep trying to make their edits "stick" and delete the other's edits?

Not sure I can add much more in a message to describe what I'm asking than the question itself. I'm sure it must have come up from time to time in Wikipedia editing. Can this sort of thing just go on and on forever, or might someone step in at some point? Augnablik (talk) 19:09, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

That's called edit warring and usually one or both editors wind up blocked. PRAXIDICAE🌈 19:11, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

But what if they each have, or at least one believes he has, very good reason to make the edits? There really could be a good guy and a bad guy, to overly simplify a situation, and the bad guy just wants to paint things his way whereas the good guy is really concerned about that. So if both editors could get blocked, the good guy and a number of readers lose.

I suppose what I wanted to hear is that there were Wiki courts, so to speak, where someone well equipped to handle such a situation listens to both editors and tries to make a decision accordingly. Augnablik (talk) 19:42, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Augnablik. "I am right" is a really really unhelpful way to enter a discussion: a much more productive one is "How can we reach a consensus that we can all accept?". Dispute resolution explains the steps to take if it the people involved do not seem to be able to reach consensus. ColinFine (talk) 19:47, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, ColinFine and PRAXIDICAE🌈 . Fostering consensus rather than battles is how I prefer to approach life. I asked my initial question because with so much bias and inability to look objectively at other viewpoints in today's media, I got wondering as a new Wikipedia editor about how this sort of thing might be handled. Wouldn't it be wonderful — not to mention practical in the long run — if in arenas of strong opinions everyone would follow the Dispute resolution guidance? Augnablik (talk) 07:21, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Is this about Language demographics of Quebec? You inserted invisible-to-the-reader comments into the article that were better expressed as a discussion on the Talk page. ClueBot, an automated program, reverted your changes. As noted above, if in a dispute with a living editor, talk it to Talk, and in not resolved there, to Dispute resolution. David notMD (talk) 20:11, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

I need reliable source

Hello, please anyone I need reliable sources to make my own page for the first time. They ones I have tried creating in the past I end up submitting them for deletion to to the fact that information there is unsourced and not from reliable sources. Mostly trivia is what I see when I try to search about a topic of interest online. Any one with the time I beg of you to please send me multiple links to reliable sources I would really appreciate,Thank you. Uricdivine (talk) 20:02, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Uricdivine, Interestingly, Wikipedia is not for writing "autobiographies"; in case if I understand you rightly. Do you want to write about "yourself" or about a specific subject? Please be specific in your answer. ─ The Aafī ^(talk) 20:18, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

I suggest that you read carefully reliable sources, and look at the table in WP:RSPS. You can ask questions about specific sources at WP:RSN, where experts in sourcing will help you. Mike Turnbull (talk) 20:21, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

@ TheAafi I wouldn't need reliable source to write about myself now would I?. I didn't say the name of the page I am about to create is because I didn't want other editors doing it before me. And yes I am writing about a specific topic and is not about myself it's about an actor who has received considerable coverable and appearances and also has played a role movie whereby thy real name is the title of the film...Anyways that all information I can give and please if you have reliable sources I would really appreciate thanks so much Uricdivine (talk) 20:30, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Uricdivine, Thanks for the reply. All you need is to understand different notability guidelines. WP:GNG, the guideline, passing which makes anything to get an article on Wikipedia. WP:NACTOR, a subjective guideline, passing which helps to get articles about actors created on Wikipedia, who do not pass WP:GNG. Reliable sources are generally those sources that have an editorial insight. You need to check with the sources discussing about this actor, that, if they have an author, if the publisher and author are independent of subject, and also if there is an editorial insight. If this doesn't help you, please let me know and I'll be there to assist you. Best, ─ The Aafī ^(talk) 20:37, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

@Uricdivine Just so you know, you absolutely would need reliable sources to write about yourself. All information in an article must be cited so that other readers can independently verify the information for themselves. That is a core principle of Wikipedia. 73.127.147.187 (talk) 06:05, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Michael D. Turnbull Thanks so much.

It's very difficult to recommend specific reliable sources without knowing the subject of the proposed article, Uricdivine. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:37, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Cordless Larry that girl lay lay, Gabriel neevah (that girl lay lay cast). Boy Spyce (musician) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Uricdivine (talk • contribs) 20:40, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Earlier today you created Boy Spyce, which was then changed to Draft:Boy Spyce, and then Speedy deleted per your request. If you intend to try again, it is on you to find published content that can be used as references. David notMD (talk) 20:58, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

For child actress Gabrielle Nevaeh Green, who plays Sadie in the TV show "That Girl Lay Lay," also on you to find references. David notMD (talk) 21:10, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

For example, IMDb is not a reliable source, because anyone can post there. Ditto, for most information, interviews with the subjects of articles, because people may misremember (or lie). David notMD (talk) 00:16, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

@ TheAafi Thank you for the links. But to hit the nail in the head I was thinking about making a page for That girl lay lay, Gabriel neevah,boy Spyce (mostly that girl lay lay and Gabriel neevah). Do any of them meet wikipedia's notability policy? Your response will be well appreciated!. Uricdivine (talk) 21:39, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

@David notMD thanks for your replies as well. Honestly I do not understand what you were saying in the place you wrote"Ditto". Do Gabriel neevah amd that girl lay lay meet wikipedia notability policy? Thanks. Uricdivine (talk) 21:43, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Apologies for not being clear - "Ditto" meant that in addition to IMDb, interviews are NOT considered reliable sources to establish notability. David notMD (talk) 21:53, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

John Penley rejection because of this ?????

Is this article the reason a page about me was rejected ?....................https://thevillagesun.com/antifa 24.120.111.152 (talk) 20:34, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Absolutely not. Draft:John Penley was rejected due to Wikipedia's notability guidelines. ––FormalDude talk 20:40, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Strictly speaking, the Draft was declined, not rejected. This means that the experienced editor who reviewed it thought that as currently written it does not yet show notability requirements are met. With further work and reliable secondary sources it may well be accepted eventually. Mike Turnbull (talk) 21:16, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia doesn't seem to have a view on the quality or otherwise of thevillagesun as a source. If it was considered reliable and the article wasn't based on an interview (in which case not WP:INDEPENDENT of Penley), it might help meet the notability guidelines if cited in the Draft. Mike Turnbull (talk) 21:23, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

There's no way that's a reliable source and including it would certainly hurt the draft. ––FormalDude talk 21:57, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

What if I had a spammer?

Say I make a page and there is a spammer, would there be any way to ban them from my page? And if so, would that cause other quirks to arise? 2603:7081:3E41:5C00:B51F:98E:D055:8D4B (talk) 22:13, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

You don't own pages but generally spammers get blocked rather quickly. PRAXIDICAE🌈 22:19, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi, IP user! If you're referring specifically to the sandbox, you should know that the sandbox is open for anyone to test edits in and is regularly blanked. This has more information, as well as a link to create your own sandbox (it's much less likely that things you put in your own sandbox will be overwritten or cleared). Happy editing, Perfect4th (talk) 22:27, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, IP editor. Please do not argue with people in the sandbox or in your edit summaries. If you see anything inappropriate, just clear the sandbox without comment. Do not add any copyrighted content to the sandbox. Any editor can clear the sandbox at any time. If you want access to a more stable sandbox, register an account. Cullen328 (talk) 22:45, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Second matter

It's me again, and I feel I should address a second matter of mine. As I am not a logged in, registered user, I face a problem. I seem to have two users which can interchange for no apparent reason. It isn't even because of a device, seeing as I only own one. If someone can, I would like this explained. Thank you~~ 2603:7081:3E41:5C00:B51F:98E:D055:8D4B 2603:7081:3E41:5C00:B51F:98E:D055:8D4B (talk) 22:47, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi fellow IP editor. Your IP will shift depending on which one your service provider assigns to your device. This is something you might be able to control by paying for a static IP, but that isn't always an option. If you prefer not to have an account, you'll have to live with switching identities occasionally - at least until IP masking comes into effect, which may make things more stable (we shall see!). 199.208.172.35 (talk) 22:51, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

King Leir

I found this amazing bit of information within the article on King Leir, an anonymous Elizabethan play:"Brian Annesley (or Anslowe) was an elderly former follower of Queen Elizabeth, a wealthy Kentishman with three daughters".

Now that is news to me. I never knew the Virgin queen was a man in disguise and had three daughters. 96.231.22.21 (talk) 22:51, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, IP editor, and welcome to the Teahouse. Are you referring to an issue with the article King Leir? As far as I can see, the article describes an event involving someone who was a former supporter of the queen and not the queen herself, though I could be reading the article wrong. Perfect4th (talk) 23:24, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure if this is a cheeky comment, but the casual reader should be able to parse that a wealthy Kentishman with three daughters is talking about Annesley and not Queen Elizabeth. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 23:26, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Indeed. Almost every English speaker can parse this as intended, apart from comedians, and people dedicated to playing the superiority game called pedantry. ColinFine (talk) 10:30, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Clear writing is not pedantry. You do not know me and you're packing a lot in there by inferring that I'm a comedian or acting in a superior fashion. I'm not an editor and don't intend to be one, but here's a simple solution: "Brian Annesley (or Anslowe), a wealthy Kentishman with three daughters, was an elderly former follower of Queen Elizabeth." Now if you think clear writing is pedantry, and that is a sentiment shared by other Wikipedia editors--well you can finish that sentence. I'm done; I won't respond anymore. Thank you for your time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.231.22.21 (talk) 22:57, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

A person I know is vandalizing a page

I maintain a page on author Byrd Spilman Dewey. Another user, Curiosityseeker, keeps deleting information on the page that is factually true. I emailed the user and she blocked me. I know who this person is as an acquaintance. Not sure what to do. Flahistory (talk) 23:06, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Flahistory Hello and welcome to the Teahouse. Please discuss your concerns on the article talk page. Wikipedia does not summarize personal knowledge, but what independent reliable sources say. Note that an edit with which you disagree is not vandalism(a deliberate effort to deface an article). 331dot (talk) 23:17, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Thank you! I deleted the text advertising Flahistory's book on Byrd Spilman Dewey from the Byrd Spilman Dewey webpage. "That the book served as an autobiography was confirmed in the 2012 biography of the Deweys, Pioneering Palm Beach: The Deweys and the South Florida Frontier, where the authors were able to match land records and events to the book's storyline. The Historical Society of Palm Beach County awarded the book the Fannie James Award for Pioneer Research Achievement." She figured out who I am and is trying to contact me through several venues. I'm feeling harassed. Curiositykeeper (talk) 10:31, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Flahistory. Please do not fall into the error of thinking that you control any article (as might be implied by your words "I maintain a page"). If you have written a biography of Dewey, please be aware of WP:SELFCITE, and avoid promotion. ColinFine (talk) 11:00, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Courtesy: Byrd Spilman Dewey. Curiousitykeeper deleted content from two sections, once each time, which you have restored. In my opinion, not vandalism.

One instance, the text about Dewey;s writing career had this: "Little, Brown & Company published her sentinel work, Bruno, in 1899. The book sold well across the country—more than 100,000 copies during its first year of publication—and was received well in national reviews.[ref name="Auto7S-9"] It was featured as a standard reader in several school catalogs around the United States.[ref name="Auto7S-10"] The book was autobiographical in nature, with Mrs. Dewey becoming the character of "Judith" and her husband the character of "Julius". That the book served as an autobiography was confirmed in the 2012 biography of the Deweys, Pioneering Palm Beach: The Deweys and the South Florida Frontier, where the authors were able to match land records and events to the book's storyline.[ref name="Auto7S-11"] The Historical Society of Palm Beach County awarded the book the Fannie James Award for Pioneer Research Achievement.[ref name="Auto3Y-1"]"

Curiositykeeper deleted the text starting with "That the book..." One can argue that the first reference in the deleted content is sufficient to confirm the autobiographical nature without needing mention of the 2012 biography, nor that the biography won an award. The second deletion by Curiositykeeper, also reverted by you, again mentioned the 2012 book, this time naming the authors of the book. The article is about Dewey, not about a book about Dewey. David notMD (talk) 00:45, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

There are hundreds of examples of biographies on Wikipedia that mention books written about the person. As you said, I don't own the page. Why would it be wrong to mention that the person has a biography? Flahistory (talk) 15:27, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Flahistory wrote the book Pioneering Palm Beach and has added this promotional content, along with inaccurate comments that Dewey "founded" Boynton Beach, which had been settled for many years before they platted their property. She has restored the text, sent the case to dispute resolution, and is trying to contact me outside of Wikipedia. Is there any way to get the promotional text removed? Curiositykeeper (talk) 11:50, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

You blocked me on Wikipedia when I tried to resolve this with you. I contacted you on Facebook and you blocked me there. When you made the edits, there was no explanation. It is an undisputed fact that Byrd Spilman Dewey bought the land that made up the town of Boynton in 1892, long before Boynton was ever in Florida. I have the deed which you do too. Adding Pioneering Palm Beach was meant to back up the fact that Bruno was an autobiography. Adding the award was meant to bolster the idea that this was a groundbreaking work in pioneer history. The sad part is that you could have contacted me and we could discuss as adults and researchers. That was not the path you chose. Flahistory (talk) 15:22, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

@Flahistory, you are not and never have been blocked on Wikipedia (@Curiositykeeper could forbid you from posting on their own talk page and ignore your messages, but that is not the same thing). If you can't resolve this through discussion on the article's talk page, then continue further with the dispute resolution process. 174.21.23.32 (talk) 16:42, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

I was replying to Curiositykeeper with the statement You blocked me. I emailed her through Wikipedia simply asking her why she deleted the paragraph. I did not receive a response and she blocked me from sending her massages. I did invoke the dispute resolution process. Flahistory (talk) 17:30, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

@Flahistory If a user blocks you from sending them e-mails, that is not the same thing in WP-speak as saying "You blocked me on Wikipedia". Being "blocked on Wikipedia" is a whole 'nother thing. 73.127.147.187 (talk) 06:46, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

How do I make a page?

I have joined Wikipedia less than a half hour ago, and all I ask is simply how I can form a page. Signed> RexJB RexJB (talk) 23:30, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi @RexJB, welcome to Wikipedia and the Teahouse. You can start by reading this guide on creating your first article, but the most important step is going out to find reliable, independent, secondary sources that have published significant coverage of your subject. Those are the foundation needed to build a Wikipedia article on. 174.21.23.32 (talk) 00:35, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Creating a new article is hard, and often leads to drafts being Declined multiple times, or even Speedy deleted. Newbies are advised to gain experience by improving existing articles first. David notMD (talk) 00:49, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

@RexJB You are "Hunter of RexJB"? Remember that a username is for use by one person, not by a group. Welcome and happy editing. 73.127.147.187 (talk) 06:23, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Fire Sprinkler Installation manual

I am a newbie to Wikipedia I would like to start a page that evolves into a ready reckoner - or reference manual for fire sprinkler installation practices - specifically for New Zealand but it would be helpful for multi national contribution under different sections. I thought that users couple download a pdf copy for a small donation to Wikipedia, thereby financing the hosting

(incidentally i see there is a reasonably undeveloped "sprinkler fitters" page but that looks to address an explanation of what a sprinkler fitter is, as opposed to what decisions a sprinkler fitter is obliged to make in the process of installing a sprinkler system so i am proposing a new entry)

Is this use of Wikipedia acceptable

Is there a mechanism to donate to download a pdf? Graham Wyatt (talk) 00:04, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi @Graham Wyatt, welcome to the Teahouse and Wikipedia! I'm afraid that would fall squarely into the category of what Wikipedia is not - specifically, not a "manual, guidebook, textbook, or scientific journal". Also, while the WMF occasionally runs donation drives, no one is ever asked to pay to download content, not even a suggested donation. Maybe you could try one of these alternative outlets. 174.21.23.32 (talk) 00:32, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

WP:YFA explains the process of creating and submitting a draft for review. There is no mechanism for creating content as a PDF and copying it in. David notMD (talk) 00:53, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Perhaps you could tackle adding content and references to Sprinkler fitting? See Help:Referencing for beginners. David notMD (talk) 00:56, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

@Graham Wyatt: Welcome to the Teahouse. Like others have said, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a how-to guide. You could try checking out the sister project Wikibooks; that site might allow you to do what you want, but you should read their policies and guidelines first. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 01:24, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

@Graham Wyatt In addition to all of that excellent advice, suppose someone tried to follow such info, and then a fire suppression system failed and people were injured or died; the installer could claim that they followed instructions provided by Wikipedia... and then someone could sue WP as the "hoster" of such information. Even if the advice was correct and the installer did everything right, systems do fail, and lawsuits are too common. I hate thinking this, but such are the times we live in... 73.127.147.187 (talk) 06:33, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Greek Oscar Winners Question

Would anyone be able to help make the List of Greek Academy Award winners and nominees page look more presentable? For example, if someone could add the red or green colors to each "status" and fix the tables for Best Actor, Best Makeup and Hairstyling, Best Live Action Short Film, Best Sound, and Best Visual Effects so that they match the size of the other tables? Thanks! Aljay508 (talk) 01:26, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

@Aljay508, this can be better discussed at the article talk page, where interested editors may help out. You can also ask at the relevant WikiProject. Kpddg ^(talk) 10:53, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

You had asked a similar question several months ago, where other editors had given some advice.... Kpddg ^(talk) 13:14, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Marilyn Monroe gold dress

I can’t find a page for Marilyn Monroe’s gold-colored dress (the one she wore while singing Happy Birthday, Mr. President). If there is not a page for that dress, there really should be one. It was labeled as the most iconic dress of the 20th century, one if the most expensive dresses of all time, and it’s getting a lot of talk right now because of Kim Kardashian. It’s also more talked about and memorable than the white and pink dresses combined, which both have their own pages. Hope I just haven’t looked hard enough. TrevortniDesserpedx (talk) 01:50, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

If it existed, I'd expect it to be in Category:Marilyn Monroe. It is not. "Gold dress of Marilyn Monroe" has never existed. NB neither being called "iconic" by somebody or other nor "getting a lot of talk" proves notability. What matters is whether reliable sources have described and discussed it in depth. -- Hoary (talk) 02:59, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

The page you linked to in your first sentence Trevortnidesserped has a section about the dress and this subsection about the damage done Happy Birthday, Mr. President#Use by Kim Kardashian. Cheers. MarnetteD|Talk 03:08, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Adding sections for US Counties

Was wondering if anyone else thought this would be a good idea. I am already a massive fan of searching different cemeteries throughout the country for notable graves, do we think that if i added a "notable burials" sections to county pages would be a good idea? ShortyStomper (talk) 02:38, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

I think it could be an interesting topic and add more insight into the counties history ShortyStomper (talk) 02:40, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

One question to ask yourself, ShortyStomper, is whether you have reliable sources. Do you? -- Hoary (talk) 04:20, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Towns and cities already have lists of notable people who lived there at one point in their lives. I doubt whether lists of people buried there adds to value to readers. Also, you posed the question as listing notable burials in articles about counties. Some counties are large, contain populations in the millions (LA County ~ 10,000,000), hundreds of cemeteries and plausibly thousands of burials of Wikipedia-notable people. David notMD (talk) 08:03, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Alright, this is duly noted, just an idea. Thank you for your criticism ShortyStomper (talk) 17:24, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

But to answer the question posed by Hoary, I would have reliable sources.

This would obviously have been a long process, but I believed it would help to supplement the research I have done outside of just for myself, and if I had moved forward would probably have needed to be a separate page(ex. "Notable Burials in West Virginia,"). But I fully acknowledge the criticism and will thus lay it to rest. ShortyStomper (talk) 17:28, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

need more song link

problems with the links of the songs and more links are needed List of most-streamed songs on Spotify — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tirso Gutiérrez (talk • contribs) 03:10, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi @Tirso Gutiérrez, you may be interested in this page which provides a detailed explanation of linking and linking style. The type of links used in the specific section of the article you mentioned are internal links that look like this. To create an internal link, you may use the link button (It looks like two linked chains). In source editing put two square brackets, the name of the page, and two more square brackets, for example: [[Philosophy]]. If you have any further questions please reply. Urban Versis 32^KB ⚡ ^{(talk | contribs)} 05:35, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Draft:Pratik Sen - support to write the article that can be submitted and accepted by Wikipedia

Hi, looking for your support to write the article in a manner acceptable to Wikipedia. Draft:Pratik Sen Thanks AnamikaWrites (talk) 05:56, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, AnamikaWrites. When you write Pratik maintains a low profile and is known to avoid the media, you are basically saying "This draft is unacceptable and ought to be deleted". Wikipedia should not, in almost all cases, have biographies of people who actively shun public attention. A Wikipedia article is an invasion of their privacy. Cullen328 (talk) 06:48, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

When I say "Pratik maintains a low profile and is known to avoid the media", I mean he is noticed to be media shy which I believe though a recognized actor its a reality not just specific to Pratik Sen but many actors/actresses across industries globally isn't it ? From press meets and interviews with journalists, he comes across approachable and responsive. Would you recommend I delete the statement or rephrase as media shy? AnamikaWrites (talk) 12:25, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Status: Declined six times. Creator stopped contributing in April 2021, after five Declineds. AnamikaWrites took up the effort in May 2022 and has more than doubled the length of the draft. David notMD (talk) 08:11, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

If the fellow is a movie actor, I see no reason why he shouldn't "maintain a low profile" or "avoid the media" other than when he's being paid to act. This draft looks promising -- maybe. Just one small example: Pratik's role as Dr. Arindam, the steadfast family friend with an unrequited love was lauded. Athithi went onto achieve both, critical and commercial success. Who lauded it? Where and when did the lauding take place? What about it was lauded? Who were the critics with whom this "sensitive" movie succeeded, and can you reassure readers that the success was in part thanks to Pratik (and not just the singing, dancing, and almost-kissing, etc, by others)? NB (i) this will require reliable sources; whereas (ii) much of the Indian press (e.g. the augustly titled Times of India) unashamedly publish sycophantic advertorials, which of course are not reliable sources. -- Hoary (talk) 08:59, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Tetrarchy

I was reading something about 'Herod the tetrarch' from the first century and wondered what was a tetrarch so I googled it and came across the article about 'tetrarchy' but it states that tetrarchy was 'instituted by Roman Emperor Diocletian in 293. It seems to me tetrarchy must have been instituted much earlier than 293. Ron L. Kuykendall (talk) 07:39, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Ron L. Kuykendall, please reread the text that appears at the very top of the article "Tetrarchy": "This article is about the tetrarchy created by Diocletian...." It continues by inviting you elsewhere for material about other tetrarchies. -- Hoary (talk) 09:05, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

At the top of Tetrarchy, it says "see Tetrarchy (Judea)". It might be better if it said "see Herodian Tetrarchy" – I'll consider changing that. Maproom (talk) 09:42, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

@Maproom Nice word "Herodian". 73.127.147.187 (talk) 06:53, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Images

Is there a page or place where i can post pictures I take? Nopzilla (talk) 08:22, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Yes, you can upload your photos with a free license at Wikipedia:File Upload Wizard. See Wikipedia:Uploading images. Kpddg ^(talk) 08:55, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Nopzilla Welcome to the Teahouse. This is not a photo sharing site. Any images you upload may be deleted at any time if they are not useful as part of the encyclopedia.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 09:02, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

I recommend uploading them to WP:COMMONS. It is separate from the English Wikipedia, and is typically more lenient. Still requires them to be freely licensed though. ––FormalDude talk 09:48, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Archiving a talk page

I am trying to archive Talk:Monster High but there's a problem. User:ClueBot III only archived some parts of the page, not all of it.

I am trying to make it so that the whole talk page is archived and essentially empty, with space for new discussions. (Every single discussion on that page is very outdated and irrelevant.)

My question: how do I archive the rest of the page? Castlepalace 12:31, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

I've done it, because I agree with your assessment. For me, there is an "Archive" link on each talk page section, which I used. I suspect that is a non-standard feature of Talk pages that I added, but I cannot remember what it was !! -Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 12:34, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Okay!!! That was very quick! Thank you. Castlepalace 12:39, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

I have another question. Can the {{Refideas}} template be deleted from the page? It's no longer necessary because a lot of the references have already been added (by me). Castlepalace 12:44, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

I have no idea, but I hope somebody else will advise us ;) - Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 12:56, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

If you have used all the required references and feel that the list is no longer needed, you can remove it. I have collapsed it for now. Kpddg ^(talk) 13:03, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Okay, thanks. I haven't used all of the refs because not all of them were "worthy," but the majority of them, I think. I'll just go ahead and remove it though. Castlepalace 13:09, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

And if you decide in the future that you needed one, you could always search the page history. Kpddg ^(talk) 13:12, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

I know. Thank you. :) Castlepalace 13:16, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

My Question is how to make table

When we read in ipl or icc or other information article we saw table how to make it. 94.128.211.40 (talk) 12:43, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi IP. Read these pages to learn how to create wikitables. --Baggaet (talk) 13:09, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Thank you(User talk:94.128.211.40 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.128.211.40 (talk • contribs) 13:28, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia page for Puberty

Aren't those images on the article illegal? It shows nude minors, so what's up with that? Casint (talk) 16:18, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Casint, I don't think these are illegal. However, Child pornography is. Images shown in the article aren't pornographic and serve an educational purpose. Baggaet (talk) 16:27, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

See MOS:OMIMG Kpddg ^(talk) 16:43, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Blogspot source?

Hi all, I'm relatively new to editing Wikipedia and I'm trying to add sources to an article I wrote that's been declined for havinf too few sources. I'm trying to add a blogspot source (independent album review and interview with the artist), but Wikipedia gave me a warning so I wanted to ask about the rules. Described the problem in further detail here: Draft talk:Macroblank

Thanks in advance for the help! LucasThree (talk) 16:27, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi @LucasThree, welcome to the Teahouse. Blogs are generally considered unreliable, and since there's also an interview with the artist, the independence is questionable too. If the author of the blog is an established critic, the source might be usable in some ways, but probably not to establish notability. 174.21.23.32 (talk) 16:37, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

LucasThree, welcome to Wikipedia! I hope you liked the place and decided to stay. For an article to be published here, it should be notable and should have reliable sources as citations/references for the sake of verifiability. Wikipedia doesn't accepted original research. Please go through introduction and referencing for beginners to learn more about how the site works. Baggaet (talk) 16:43, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

The Proper Uploading of an Article

Can someone please check the proper uploading of this article onto Wikipedia?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lord_Milner/Who_United_the_Western_Front_During_World_War_I%3F

the "Wikipedia:Lord_Milner" part looks incorrect. I would like to have that part deleted, or have the article deleted and uploaded fresh.

Thank you. Lord Milner (talk) 16:49, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Lord Milner, the page has been moved from project namespace to your userspace here: User:Lord Milner/Who United the Western Front During World War I?. Please see this help page to learn how to perform moves. --Baggaet (talk) 17:07, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

A serious issue here!

Pressed reader whole query.

Before bothering to read, know first that Thegoravsharma has been indef blocked for sockpuppetry. David notMD (talk) 19:00, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

It all begins a month ago when I created my Wikipedia page. I don’t know much about Wikipedia at that time, even I think that only few users can edit Wikipedia articles. And then I searched for my town (Kalakote) and seen that many points are missing in article. I edited it and try to add more information but I have a gut feeling that Wikipedia is going to reject it but it got accepted. Then I realised that anyone in Wikipedia can edit it. Than I did too many edits on that article, some got rejected whether some got accepted. User:Ohnoitsjamie helped a lot me to understand about Wikipedia editing. After that I edited some more articles. Then I try to create a Wikipedia page about Thermal Power Plant Kalakote. I really found it hard! Article also got rejected because of poor citations and copyright work. Now I decided to create a Wikipedia page with all references without copying. Then I created Casetoo. And real story began here! My article got accepted by Wikipedia, I was very happy that whole night, I literally told my all friends that I make an Wikipedia article, I also informed that person through Instagram story that you now have Wikipedia article, he also congrats me (you can find my Instagram account, it’s too easy!!, I have all proofs there). I then continue my contributions to Wikipedia and cross 2 million+ views in about 120 edits. Than a thought came to my mind whether I can create my own Wikipedia page. Without any research I rushed and make my own Wikipedia page. Now you all know what is going to happen, absolutely speedy deletion. My article got removed by User:Praxidicae. He didn’t just removed my article, but also drafted my old article about Casetoo by saying, more references needed. I added almost 15-17 more references and raise a request to not tondo anything with that article. I also apologise for my shameful act of self article, on that request. But after my request he got offended, and I agree as i did such act. But User:Praxidicae got offended in such a way that he removed all references from that page and put another speedy deletion strike with claim that I’m copying the content. When i asked reason about it, he put another speedy deletion strike by saying that I’m taking money or something like that. Now I asked some questions in his talk page that whether my account got affected by your claim but he didn’t replied. This is our conversation: user talk:Thegoravsharma

Yeah, I did mistake but he should have warned me instead of deleting everything. It’ll lose new users interest on editing on Wikipedia! Now I have some questions

Q1) Does copyright in one article affect another?

Q2) Can Wikipedia senior editors can do wrong claims without any fear?

Q3) I read all notability guidelines of Wikipedia and Casetoo is here in every aspect, but now whenever I’m creating article about Casetoo it’s getting deleted by User:Praxidicae. What should I do now?

Q4) What should I have to do if someone is pointing wrong allegations on me about involvement in conflict?

Q5) Senior editors need to guide us or he can do anything with her choice?

Q6) Can a junior editor like User:Thegoravsharma can raise a complaint against rude behaviour and wrong intentions of senior editors like User:Praxidicae?

'I will neither edit nor donate Wikipedia till I got all my answers!' Thegoravsharma (talk) 17:22, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Thegoravsharma has been blocked indefinitely for sockpuppetry. Cullen328 (talk) 17:40, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

shocker. PRAXIDICAE🌈 17:43, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Alert about my talk page at a Wiki I have not visited

Hi, I don't think I have ever visited the Hindi Wiki, and I certainly don't speak it. Why would I have an alert that someone posted to my (presumably) non-existent talk page there? Is this a sign of account hacking or spoofing or something? I didn't open it, or the Hindi wiki, so I don't have a diff. Thanks NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 19:06, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

You must have visited it today, they have an auto-generated welcome for all "new accounts" which means your account automatically attaches to any Wikipedia project you visit. PRAXIDICAE🌈 19:10, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Are you kidding? I've been deep into deleting fluff from my en.wiki watchlist, and working on pages directly related to the Jan 6 committee hearings. If I click an image (template FILE) on an article in the en.wiki, might it open in the Hindi wiki without my realizing it? That's the only thing I can remotely think that I did myself. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 19:19, 18 June 2022 (UTC) PS thanks for the help figuring it out. I guess I must not have sounded appreciative when I snorted..... I just don't think that's it. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 19:21, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

You can probably check your history, it's really not a big deal. If you clicked some sort of interwiki link, and it was through Hiwiki, it would automatically connect because of WP:CENTRALAUTH. PRAXIDICAE🌈 19:27, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

I know about version histories and contribs lists.... is there a log of what things I merely visited? That would be cool, how do I find it?NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 19:30, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

No, I meant your internet browser's history. PRAXIDICAE🌈 19:35, 18 June 2022 (UTC)les

I have all the bells and whistles set up to delete my footprints, at least periodically, and even restore my partition from an image file roughly monthly, so that's not an option.NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 20:02, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

CentralAuth should have a record of when you visited a given wiki and thus got autobestowed an account (due to SUL). —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{a little blue Bori} 19:44, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

That's interesting. It says I've been "Attached" to a long list of wikis (what the devil is test2.wiki?) .... but at login. And all those other wikis in the list are the same, attached at login. What's that about? I almost always do wiki on a desktop from home in the US. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 20:02, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

@NewsAndEventsGuy: That's your WP:SUL. It reserves your username on all wikis (so nobody else can impersonate you), and automatically creates your local account when you visit a wiki you've never visited before. ––FormalDude talk 20:08, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

"SUL"!!! How wonderfully ironic given the immediately following thread we both tried to answer about being NPOV writing on religion.... I still say I have NEVER visited these other places, so don't understand why I got a notice about my (fake?) talk page at the Hindi wiki today. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 20:16, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Your hindi talk page is real: hi:सदस्य वार्ता:NewsAndEventsGuy. I don't know why it would have been created without you visiting it though. ––FormalDude talk 20:24, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

It's because whether they realize it or not, they must have clicked something and visited hiwiki. This thread is a bit of a nothingburger though, there's nothing enwiki can do and it's a normal part of Wikimedia/mediawiki's functions. PRAXIDICAE🌈 20:27, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

@NewsAndEventsGuy A lot of browsers will preload pages to speed up your browsing experience, e.g. chrome has a setting to "preload pages for a faster browsing experience" in the cookie settings page. If this is enabled then when you visit a page with links to other projects in it your browser might start loading pages from other projects in the background, at which point the servers will create a local account for you and you'll recieve a welcome. 192.76.8.88 (talk) 20:33, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Test2.wiki is a test wiki for playing around with software features and testing the stability of new versions of mediawiki. 192.76.8.88 (talk) 20:36, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

@192.76.8.88: Thanks, preloading makes sense. I don't see anything in my settings (current Firefox). I use google for a home page, and there are icons for commonly used things, one of which is wikipedia. I click on that and get the global main wiki page. Do the other language wikis randomly populate, or change once in awhile? And could I be triggering some preload code just when my mouse rolls over one? That would explain it. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 20:49, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

@NewsAndEventsGuy Firefox will preload content from sites without you clicking on them in some situations, see this support document for the details. The language links on the homepage are based on the pageviews of each project and do get changed occasionally. It's probably going to be impossible to figure out exactly what caused you to visit the Hindi project. 192.76.8.88 (talk) 20:55, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

OK much obliged NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 20:58, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

THANKS ALL, my main concern was to verify this isn't a sign of hacking or ID theft or some other nasty so I'll relax and go feed the chickens.NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 20:58, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

@NewsAndEventsGuy: You are correct that you didn't visit the Hindi Wikipedia but it's not about preloading. You edited Template:Supplement years ago here at the English Wikipedia. Yesterday a user imported the template with page history to the Hindi Wikipedia.[3] You are in the imported page history so your account was automatically created at the Hindi Wikipedia: hi:Special:Logs/NewsAndEventsGuy. Some wikis post welcome messages to users when their account is created. You were alerted of such a post. This has confused many users. I proposed to disallow such welcome messages at meta:Welcoming policy but the proposal hasn't received much attention. PrimeHunter (talk) 01:31, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

That's flippin' insane. I did what I could and added a SUPPORT notvote there. I want these two hours back. Thanks for caring and explaining. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 02:04, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

This may be a red herring(?), but try going to your Preferences > Notifications > and make sure "Show notifications from other Wikis" is not checked. Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:35, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

That's probably too drastic for most users. I find cross-wiki notifications useful most of the time. If you really don't want them then you can disable them at Special:GlobalPreferences#mw-prefsection-echo. If you only disable them at Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-echo here at the English Wikipedia then you will still see them as soon as you visit any other Wikimedia wiki, e.g. Commons or Wikidata. PrimeHunter (talk) 09:28, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the preferences tip. Maybe a cross wiki notification could come with a smallcase link to HELP:Crosswiki Notices that would walk people through what I've learned here? Thanks for the help all NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 10:00, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Understanding NPOV (Neutral Point of View)

I recently submitted an article on a very old but recently revived religious viewpoint: Draft:Revelatory Theory of Atonement. It was promptly rejected because of NPOV problems. I can see that it was written with the point of view of someone wanting to support the view. However, I'm unclear as to how much I need to do to make the tone more neutral. I've done a superficial (I think) revision in which I replaced what were statements of fact with references to this being the theory's point of view on it. I'm not sure if that is sufficient or if it needs a rewrite almost as if it was an adversarial viewpoint, i.e. pointing out everywhere that alternate viewpoints disagree and why. That would seem to me to be taking the NPOV to the opposite ditch. But I'm uncertain where the middle of the road is. I've thought of just resubmitting it but that seems like it might be wasting some reviewer's time just to tell me "No, that's not it." I've also looked at other existing articles that have been flagged as having NPOV problems and I'm not sure I see it in them. I've read the available articles on what NPOV means and am still not sure if the article is still going to have a problem. Advice on how to better understand NPOV and what needs to be done to this article would be much appreciated. WikiMrBadger (talk) 19:49, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

@WikiMrBadger: Your draft reads more like an essay than an encyclopedia article. Submissions should summarise information in secondary, reliable sources and not contain opinions or original research. Your referencing is very messy, it looks like you're including multiple sources in single citations. Furthermore, biblical sources are only acceptable for verifying content in the bible. You cannot use a biblical source to verify a subjective analysis, those claims must be supported by secondary sources. ––FormalDude talk 20:03, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Suggested exercises

1. Try to think of a superstition you find so ludicrous it makes you laugh

2. Now try to write an essay that describes this supserstitition and the people who truly believe it, without ridiculing or insulting their belief. A helpful essay to do this is WP:Writing for the opponent

3. After you try to do that for awhile (so you have the experience of trying) study the article Salvation in Christianity. I won't claim that article is entirely free of the problem, but you can see how the collective contributors have tried to step outside of any faith to write ABOUT it, from the perspective of an observer, rather than with the unconscious word choice of the faithful.

Good luck NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 20:11, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, that was exactly what I was looking for. You have given me a good example of the mindset from which the article needs to come. WikiMrBadger (talk) 21:07, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

I agree with FormalDude you have referencing/citation problems too. You can get great NPOV help at the NPOV noticeboard WP:NPOVN and help with references at the RS noticeboard WP:RSN NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 21:12, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Page protection

I have noticed that some pages are "protected" and cannot be edited. I have also noticed that users who are unable to edit a page because it is protected may submit an edit request on the talk page, but what happens if the talk page is itself protected? Why are pages on Wikipedia protected? Isn't Wikipedia supposed to be editable by anyone? FAdesdae378 (talk) 21:10, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Pages are protected as means of protection, to prevent vandalism, BLP violations, spam. Wikipedia can be edited by anyone but it doesn't mean that anyone is allowed to edit as they please - there are still rules and policies to follow. PRAXIDICAE🌈 21:12, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

What happens if a talk page is protected? How do new users discuss a page if its talk page is protected? FAdesdae378 (talk) 21:16, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

well, what page are we talking about? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 21:20, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Do you have an example rather than something hypothetical? PRAXIDICAE🌈 21:20, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

@FAdesdae378: If the talk page is protected, you can go to WP:RFPP, and there is a button there you can click to open an edit request. RudolfRed (talk) 21:22, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

What happens if new users want to discuss a page who's talk page is protected in general? FAdesdae378 (talk) 21:24, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

It's probably dependent on the page, which is why we've asked for a specific example. PRAXIDICAE🌈 21:25, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Has page protection ever been used on pages where disruptive editing has not occurred? Page protection is intended to prevent disruption to the wiki. FAdesdae378 (talk) 21:28, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

@FAdesdae378: There are more than 6 million articles in the encyclopedia. If you can't work on one of them, there are many more you can work on. RudolfRed (talk) 21:28, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

RudolfRed mayhaps was a tad to harsh there, but given that you have refused to provide an example either of protected Talk page or protected article that had not been subjected to disruptive editing, partially on you. Be aware that there is a process for unblock requests. David notMD (talk) 22:01, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

...given that the user is autoconfirmed (and most protected talk pages are semi-protected, of which the rest seem to be archives and attributions), I believe this is a theoretical situation they're asking on how an IP or non-confirmed user would be able to edit an article where both the main and talk pages are protected. that being said, they could register, wait for a bit of experience and autoconfirmation, and return; they could also request unprotection at RFPP if they don't believe the page needs to be protected anymore. happy editing! 💜  melecie  talk - 00:04, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Editing a wiki page

Dear Editors,

I need help in adding a sub heading to the Frank Guggenheim Foundation page, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Frank_Guggenheim_Foundation, but I am having some problems doing so. 2A00:801:237:6C06:2C05:6971:C598:EE22 (talk) 21:19, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Do you mean a section heading? I'm not aware that Wikipedia does sub-headings. Anyway, what happens when you try? It seems that no-one has edited Harry Frank Guggenheim Foundation for over a year. Maproom (talk) 21:37, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

2A00:801:237:6C06:2C05:6971:C598:EE22 Sub- headings and sub-sub headings follow the logic of headings. Sub-headings have 3 "=" on each side of the sub-heading name, and sub-sub headings have four "=" on each side.--Quisqualis (talk) 21:50, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

View history of the article shows no evidence that you have attempted to edit it, either as an IP or a registered account. David notMD (talk) 22:02, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Giving fame to domestic terrorists

Some experts on reducing terrorism (mass shootings bombings etc) say the perps seek fame and one way to reduce their frequency is for society to not shout their name from every rooftop. Do we have a consensus whether we redact certain names and suppress certain biographies to support this prevention effort? Or do we just handle those troubled souls with our standard P&G? Thanks NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 22:55, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

NewsAndEventsGuy Hello and welcome to the Teahouse. Wikipedia is not censored for any reason. We have articles about the bad things in the world just as much as the good. We have Mother Teresa and Adolf Hitler. 331dot (talk) 23:08, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Not sure Mother Theresa is the example you'll want to use for good in the world... PRAXIDICAE🌈 23:10, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Seeing as how she's been dead a long time, what it suggests about the remaining "good in the world" would indeed be depressing.

Seriously though, 331dot, Hitler is a bad example since he too is long gone. A better example of what I'm talking about is Improvised_explosive_device where as you say we do report a lot of the bad now in the world. However, we are not including details that would let someone go build their own and create even more of it. The rationale behind that choice is violence prevention and the rationale behind "Deny recognition" in crime prevention is exactly the same. So we could still have our articles, say, on the Sandy Hook shooting, and a biography on the Sandy Hook shooter without identifying the perpetrator, just as we don't list ingredients for all those IEDs. And I only used Sandy Hook as a random example. The question arose elsewhere. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 23:24, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Ultimately it comes down to a combination of WP:NOTCENSORED and WP:EDITDISC. In my experience, there's no consensus for completely scrubbing names of terrorists. However, using their name sparingly and not using pictures is something that I have seen gain traction. ––FormalDude talk 23:31, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

No pic, that seems no brainerish. I'm on the fence about names. One benefit of making names known is so independent researchers (not plugged into government datasets) can try to tease out patterns. But if using names means that many more likely victims, its a painful cost for the uncertain longer term benefit. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 23:36, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

It's a controversial topic that causes a lot of dissent. The glamorization of terrorists on Wikipedia would make an interesting essay topic. ––FormalDude talk 23:41, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks I think I'll pass on this drama topic. I saw a truckload of related edits in my watch list and was trying to decide whether to get involved. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 23:44, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

How to edit a timeline?

The article Cradle of civilization includes near the bottom a section titled Timeline and a graph dating the founding civilizations of the world. I want to edit the graph but clicking the edit button, the timeline seems to have been put into the article by inserting only a template (if that is what it is called) of double curly brackets enclosing the words "World timeline." What is this? How does one go about editing the timeline? Smallchief (talk) 23:18, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

hi @Smallchief and welcome to the teahouse! you can find the page at {{Worldhistory}}. this template generates the timeline so it can be imported to other pages without repeating the code, and updates all other pages when it is updated. happy editing! 💜  melecie  talk - 23:45, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. Smallchief (talk) 00:27, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

@Smallchief: Melecie linked the wrong template. As you said, the code says {{World timeline}}. That means Template:World timeline is used. See more at Help:A quick guide to templates. This template uses the feature at Help:EasyTimeline syntax. PrimeHunter (talk) 01:11, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, for the alert response.Smallchief (talk) 09:13, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Which ISBN/publisher to use for a translated novel

I am writing an article about a French-language novel recently translated into English(Draft:Hadriana in All My Dreams) and the infobox for books recommends to use the ISBN/publisher of the original novel, but wouldn't it make more sense for the English-language Wikipedia to use the ISBN/publisher of the English translation? Many thanks Jaguarnik (talk) 00:56, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

@Jaguarnik - You may wish to review Template talk:Infobox book/Archive 4#Translated books case study if you haven't done so already. Happy editing! GoingBatty (talk) 04:51, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Jaguarnik, your draft is about the French-language novel, so that is the work whose ISBN you should list. Maproom (talk) 07:26, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Two Things

One: do you think that the sources in this draft are enough to establish notability?
And two, why is Screen Rant listed as a reliable source? It has a reputation as a content farm and churns out clickbaity articles. EDIT: Should it be used to establish notability?
Thanks, Vortex (talk) 06:07, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Screen Rant is considered a marginally reliable source, but there doesn't seem to be an overall consensus. You can view the relevant discussion here. Shantavira|^{feed me} 07:52, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Twin

Hello,I would love to know if adding that a notable person has a twin sister is trivia? Example Noah Schnapp. I added that he has a twin sister named Chloe, another editor removed it saying I shouldn't add name of non notable minor,after debating we agreed on adding Noah has a twin sister only which I did and added citations. Another editor removed it saying is trivia ignoring the talk page which made me go straight to his user talk and question him. For an edit war not to begin I came here to know if adding that Noah Schnapp has a twin sister stand out as trivia? Thanks (also I don't know why "iii" are here I tried removing it but the won't go away) again Thanks Uricdivine (talk) 09:10, 19 June 2022 (UTC)iii

@Uricdivine: @Joeyconnick is not ignoring you, they gave justification in their edit summary and responded to you on their talk page. Unless you have a better source than Instagram, the content about his twin should not be added. ––FormalDude talk 09:36, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Fwiw, I re-added twin sister, also commented at Talk:Noah_Schnapp#Family. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:33, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

How to format a textbox of a certain size

I want to reformat a textbox I made. It looks fine on my Firefox browser but another experienced editor has mentioned a very likely problem, so I'll quote him:

I noticed you used wikimarkup in the textbox to force line breaks. They look fine on my fullsize desktop. Do you already know how that will display on a wide range of devices using both the web and app versions of the en.wiki? Or how it gets crunched when other platforms echo our articles? I was just wondering if maybe such things are reasons to let the text line returns and box length-width change automatically to fit the users technology for best viewing? But like I said, I'm not really interested in learning the tech side of our markup magic, so I'll just leave you to wonder if the line breakmarkup should be reevaluated, or if its good as is. Thanks for caring. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 19:53, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

The box, with my formatting, is at Attempts to overturn the 2020 United States presidential election#Reactions. Here it is:

"Dr. Eastman and President Trump launched a
campaign to overturn a democratic election,
an action unprecedented in American history.
Their campaign was not confined to the ivory tower—
it was a coup in search of a legal theory....
If Dr. Eastman and President Trump's plan had worked,
it would have permanently ended
the peaceful transition of power,
undermining American democracy and the Constitution."
If the country does not commit to investigating and
pursuing accountability for those responsible,
the Court fears January 6 will repeat itself."

-- Judge David O. Carter, United States district court

I suspect he has a point. What I need is a textbox that will look right for all browsers and cellphones. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 10:28, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

References

Can I make a page in my user namespace unvisible?

Suppose I have a subpage in my user namespace. Can I make this subpage invisible to other users whatever the reason is? Regpath (talk) 11:24, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Don't think so, but you can hide it from webcrawling search engines (google, bing etc) by putting {{noindex}} at the top. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 11:27, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Regpath (ec) Hello and welcome to the Teahouse. No, that is not possible. All pages on Wikipedia are potentially visible to all. Some are harder to find than others, but all edits to all pages appear in the Recent Changes log. If you don't want other people to see something you are doing, do not put it on Wikipedia. 331dot (talk) 11:28, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Sometimes when I'm involved in WP:WIKIDRAMA with an editor who lacks competence in the interests of not pouring gas on the fire I'll try to prep a request for enforcement action but don't want the problem editor to see it until I'm ready for them to see it. So what I do is draft in my Sandbox, and hit preview to verify the markup, but actually save that work in an offwiki text editor. I also use the "nowiki" tags around their user names so they don't get notified if I slip and post my draft by mistake. If I do make that slip and really really care, I ask for that user page to get deleted and just hope the other party doesn't monitor my contribs and explode when they prematurely see a draft. At the same time,I resume work on a different userpage, but again only hitting preview and not "post" NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 11:35, 19 June 2022 (UTC)