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Errors in "On this day"

Today's OTD

• Missed Father's Day, a notable observance, celebrated on this date by the largest number of flags on the Father's Day page, and listed right after Juneteenth on "Holidays, observances, and celebrations in the United States". — Preceding unsigned comment added by PeterDReed (talk • contribs) 02:59, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

  This isn't the US Wikipedia. We have an international focus and when father's day is observed various from country to country. Schwede66 03:06, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

  Perhaps you meant to say "the largest number" isn't universal enough. "the largest number of flags on the Father's Day page" means Father's Day#Dates, which acknowledges that Wikipedia is international and the date changes. Art LaPella (talk) 03:29, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

  The article has orange tags as well as lots of uncited statements, so is ineligible for OTD at the present moment. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 06:52, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Errors in the summary of the featured list

Friday's FL

(June 24)

Monday's FL

(June 20, tomorrow)

Errors in the summary of the featured picture

Notice to administrators: When fixing POTD errors, please update the corresponding regular version (i.e. without "protected" in the page title) in addition to the Main Page version linked below.

General discussion

Planned POTD 2022-06-13 (File:Michele Merkin 1.jpg)

There was clear consensus against including this image as POTD at Wikipedia talk:Picture of the day/Archive 6#Discussion regarding possible picture of the day: Michele Merkin. I'm confused as to why User:Adam Cuerden removed it from Wikipedia:Picture of the day/Unused without discussion and scheduled it to run on 2022-06-13. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 15:17, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Perhaps Wikipedia:POTD/Unused should actually link discussions if it's meant to be held by them. As it was, it very much gives the impression it was one person's opinion. However, I don't think the discussion is particularly relevant given the blurbs provided with the image were quite... bad, which contextualised things differently. Now, 8 years on, with her having done a number of notable things, I think the context is very different, especially compared to the blurb about glamour photography that I'm a little shocked this image was trying to run as. Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 7.8% of all FPs} 16:16, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

@Adam Cuerden The discussion was explicitly mentioned and linked. Before you deleted it, the listing for this image ended in The decision not to feature this image on the main page was affirmed through a two-week discussion in May 2014. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 16:37, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Very well, but that was 8 years ago, in a very different Wikipedia environment, and the summary of the argument is "Too cheesecake-y", which is hardly a compelling case against. And, frankly, I don't think anyone really cares if it's on the main page. We've had literal people dying on the main page before. We've had more nudity. If it shouldn't be a featured picture at all, nominate it for delisting. There's plenty of time for that. Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 7.8% of all FPs} 23:10, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

The POTD guidelines specifically mention this as an example of an image which shouldn't be used. Hut 8.5 16:32, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

I'm open to a vote on it, but I don't think it would really have any substantial controversy. I don't love the image, but I doubt it'd cause that much harm, and I don't like the precedent it sets to deny things more for fear of immature giggling than any concrete reason. And it's no doubt airbrushed and unrealistic, but it's not like we're going to make a habit of it. It's certainly an outlier for FPs, but it's not any worse than you'd see on the covers in any British shop's magazine rack.

I 'm not against leaving things off the main page, but I feel like there should be a standard of balancing possible harm with possible educational benefits. While a model's career might not be high academia, I'm really not seeing much harm, so... I think we call back to the default and run it.

And, you know, if we're really worried we can always move it to June 26th, at which point the featured article will absolutely assure no-one cares in the least about the FP. Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 7.8% of all FPs} 21:03, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Given the prior consensus against posting this I don't think it should be done without a discussion. Hut 8.5 11:33, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

Well, we've been having one. I can't force people to comment. Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 7.8% of all FPs} 16:46, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

I'll comment then and say that I see no good reason not to include it. It is a fine image of a beautiful person, and there is no suggestion of any exploitation of the subject. Maybe some cultures will find the semi-nudity mildly offensive, but by using the internet such users will be routinely exposing themselves to far worse, and our policy is not to accept such censorship on our pages. Jmchutchinson (talk) 19:21, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. No issue as far as I can tell. WaltCip-(talk) 15:46, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

May be relevant to point out Template:POTD/2018-04-02 while we're at it. Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 7.9% of all FPs} 22:33, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Howcheng added that to the POTD guidelines that Image:Michele Merkin 1.jpg is a bit too salacious back in 2008 [1]. Was that determined by a consensus, or was it just one editor's opinion? – Muboshgu (talk) 18:57, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

@Muboshgu: There was a discussion. If consensus has changed since then, then so be it. —howcheng {chat} 20:24, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

There was another discussion in 2014: "Consensus is against this being used as POTD". I believe that's the most-recent consensus on the matter. Levivich 20:31, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Good to see there was a discussion. WP:CCC in 14 years. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:38, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

• Featured pictures that are apparently less controversial
• 

  Eugen Sandow
  Picture of the Day for 2 April 2018

• 

  "The Large Bathers" by Renoir
  Picture of the Day for 10 November, 2019

It kind of feels silly to block this one in the light of those. Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 7.9% of all FPs} 01:08, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

• I wouldn't run the picture of the model on POTD because it's not a good picture. It's airbrushed and thus unrealistic. It's not educational; it doesn't really illustrate or depict anything well. There are better pictures of "glamour shots", of modeling, of airbrushing techniques, of bikinis... this just isn't a good example of anything. The bodybuilder is a famous historical figure ("the father of bodybuilding") and the Renoir is a famous painting; this photograph of a model is not a famous photograph nor a particularly famous model; they're not comparable. Levivich 07:03, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

The remedy for "It shouldn't be an FP!" is a delist nomination at WP:FPC. They take ten days, and if closes as delist before it runs, what, 14 days from now? It can't run. If it happens, problem solved.

Frankly, it's boring '00s men's magazine cover stuff, with, at this point, it's biggest point of notability is being the oldest FP never to have gone on the mainpage. But it's also too old to effectively rejudge, and if I'm to start blocking things from the main page because they don't interest me, well, that's more power than you should give or that I should have as a co-ordinator.

Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 7.9% of all FPs} 07:23, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

"It hasn't run yet" is a terrible reason to run anything. Are we running low on candidate pictures? There's really no reason to remove it from /Unused. Also, I'm sure I don't need to tell you why these airbrushed glamour shots of models are harmful, e.g. to young people's body image and self-esteem. By the way, I'm not gonna spend my free time fixing the mistakes of years past by nominating FP's for de-listing (nor would I do that with FAs), but you're welcome to. That would be a better thing to do with a bad photo than removing it from /Unused and then kinda threatening to list it unless the community deals with it. I think as POTD coordinator what you should do is make choices so that we have the best outcomes with the least disruption/editor time spent. Don't use this position to make a WP:POINT. (I read the draft Signpost essay.) Levivich 12:45, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Ah yes, think of the children! Although Wikipedia is not supposed to be censored, I think we are all tolerant of doing so on the Main Page as an exception in extreme cases. This is surely not one. Images of untypically beautiful people are everywhere in most societies, so I don't believe that Wikipedia running such a picture on one day does one jot of harm. Jmchutchinson (talk) 14:12, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Let's all stop using the word "censored" in these discussions. Choosing an image to showcase on the front page, or choosing not to showcase an image on the front page, has nothing to do with censorship. Censorship would be deleting the image, not declining to showcase it. This is not an image of an untypically beautiful person, and even if it were, we are not here to showcase beauty. What is the encyclopedic value of this image? How does it educate? It does harm because it presents an unrealistic, unobtainable image of what some people think beauty is or should be. And yes, think of the children. Levivich 14:19, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

No, you don't have to delete an image for it to count as censorship; just not showing it will suffice. You seem to disapprove of the glamour industry (maybe for good reasons, but others differ). Not displaying the image for that reason seems like censorship to me. The encyclopedic value of the image is that it was judged to be a high quality example of the genre. Jmchutchinson (talk) 16:15, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Judged to be a high quality example of the genre by whom? From among what choices? It's an example of the genre, but it's not a high-quality one. It might be the only one with a compatible license. Levivich 17:46, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

And may I suggest you look up the definition of censorship. It's rather specific. "Not choosing an image for the main page because it's not the best image we can put up there" is not censorship under any definition you'll find. Levivich 17:50, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

@Levivich: I feel that every featured picture should potentially run. As I said, if the only objection is feeling it's an insufficiently good picture, the remedy is a delist nomination at WP:FPC, not requesting an extrajudicial judgement.

I have nearly 8% of all featured pictures. That means I can't go around judging other people's work arbitrarily, lest I end up treating them differently than myself. The Merkin image is, at worst, boring. It won't break Wikipedia, and I have no idea why it's managed to cause so much hand-wringing. Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 7.9% of all FPs} 19:51, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

If your contributions to FP limits your ability as POTD coordinator, then don't volunteer for the job. I am operating on the assumption that having you as POTD coordinator is no different than having anyone else as POTD coordinator. No previous coordinator felt that respecting /Unused was a problem or "extrajudicial judgment". You're the one who removed this image (and others) from /Unused and scheduled them, so you're the one who needs to justify that. I don't think it's right for you to unilaterally remove images from /Unused and schedule them, and then tell the rest of us to have it delisted if we don't like it because you want to run every FP. There is no consensus to run every FP; there is consensus not to run this and other FPs. It worries me that you admit this isn't a good picture but you've removed it from /Unused and listed it anyway. That's kind of the definition of WP:POINTy behavior: doing something that's bad (scheduling this bad pic) in order to make a point (about nudity? Censorship? /Unused? Every FP should be POTD? Idk.) Levivich 21:36, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

The point is that it doesn't seem that bad. There's no point to be made if the image doesn't look like a problem. The Unused page shouldn't be an arbitrary collection, it should make sense. I'm not really hearing concrete reasons not to put it on the main page, just... well, WP:IDONTLIKEIT with a side of WP:THEREFOREYOUSHOULDNTLIKEITANDDOWHATISAY Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 7.9% of all FPs} 22:21, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

IMO, POTD coord shouldn't be scheduling pics that, in his own words, "doesn't seem that bad". POTD should be the best pictures. This is not one of them. Nobody is saying it is obscene or lewd. It doesn't matter that she's half naked. That's not the issue--and as your own examples show, that was never an issue. This is a poor quality image. It shouldn't run for that reason alone. You seem to agree it's a poor quality image. You shouldn't schedule it for that reason alone. Levivich 23:41, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Was going to say this in a previous section, and have probably expressed as much in the past, but I agree that NOTCENSOR should be irrelevant for main page decisions. The encyclopedia isn't censored, as in if you go to an article about sexuality, anatomy, blasphemy, violence, etc., we shouldn't censor images that illustrate that subject. All of that is really easy to find on Wikipedia. The question is what we want to showcase for the broadest possible audience. There's obviously a ton of gray area, though, and that is where we need some imperfect form of consensus, weighing the educational value against objections. NOTCENSORED on its own shouldn't carry any weight, though. Even when we're talking about articles rather than the main page, NOTCENSORED is just an argument against removal -- it still needs to be accompanied with a persuasive argument to include. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 20:25, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

I think the Wikipedia is, and should be, fundamentally an educational project. Putting this photo on the Main Page does not seem to me to have any educational value. It is, in a weird way, somewhat similar to the lynching photo above: in both cases, there could be educational value, but that getting that value requires more of an explanation than the Main Page's FP section offers.

I really don't think that the 120-year-old photo or the 19th-century painting are at all comparable, precisely because everyone involved in those historical words is long dead. If this photo comes up again a hundred years from now, you can put me down as supporting, except to the extent that Missvain was probably right in her prior comments about the white balance being off. (Also: When people respond "Maybe this ought to be de-listed", I think the response should be "Maybe we should think longer about running this – it's been eight years, so what's another month?" instead of "My poor hands are tied and I just have to run it unless you rush over there and get it de-listed first"). WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:24, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

• A separate objection: do we have a model release to put this image on the front page? Aside from licensing rights, the model is covered by WP:BLP, and there are personality rights to consider. Levivich 22:06, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

I'm in favor of another RFC or vote or whatever, if need be, over whether to run this image; it's been 8 years, and consensus can change. I agree that NOTCENSORED applies differently to the Main Page, in which people are more likely to come across content they see as offensive without intending to view such content; cf. Paris Adult Theatre I v. Slaton, in which the privacy interest at issue in Stanley v. Georgia (which held that possessing obscene movies et al. could not be criminalized since no negative externalities exist) does not apply to public establishments (where such externalities can exist). That said, I don't think this image is very lewd (no excessive nudity), and I don't have any particularly strong feelings over whether this image should be run as POTD or is FP-worthy. -BRAINULATOR9 (TALK) 22:17, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

That's kind of my point. It's nothing worth getting so bothered about, and I think we need a positive reason to skip, not a mere negative one. If we have a good reason to not put on the main page, that's one thing. But I find it odd that the main argument against it appearing appears to be a mere... not liking it. I mean, she's a public figure. We're not Brittanica, we cover popular culture as well. If we accept we're in part an encyclopedia of popular culture, models and television personalities aren't any less valid than more traditionally academic subjects, and me having no real interest in them is irrelevant. For example if a featured article co-ordinator started blocking the prolific roads or hurricane projects from the main page, we'd be quite upset at them, even if their argument is that they didn't interest them. I don't see this as any different: a co-ordinator needs to judge things dispassionately, not by what interests them to write or photograph or work on. And any of the sorts of subjects Wikipedia covers should be considered valid unless there's a good reason not to include it. My lack of passion for the subject shouldn't matter. Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 7.9% of all FPs} 22:26, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

If "IDONTLIKEIT" is another way of saying "poor quality image", then that's like the #1 best reason not to run something for POTD. And whole consensus can change, the way to change an RFC consensus is with a new RFC, not by ignoring the old consensus. Levivich 23:41, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

• Currently no strong opinion for or against using the image as a POTD, just wanna say that Adam Cuerden scheduling the image for a POTD (without consensus) and removing it from the unused list feels very WP:GAMEy and uncivil. The edit summary Adam used was "They're scheduled for the main page. Putting them on here if they're running is ridiculous" which in itself is ridiculous, since Adam is the one who scheduled it. Adam should have sought consensus first, and this whole discussion feels WP:POINTy. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 02:32, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

  It had three weeks, and still has most of two. Sometimes the best plan is to say you're doing something (which I did, right here) and see if anyone actually cares. Given the remedy for "not good enough be a featured picture" is a delist nom, and there's no real arguments besides that, there's really no valid opposition I'm seeing. Especially none that cares enough to do something (such as create a delist nom) Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 7.9% of all FPs} 13:01, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

  Look at this thread and reconsider whether anyone cares to do something. The "something" might not be the thing that you expected (delisting the pic). Levivich 13:07, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

  @Adam Cuerden: I've now looked at June's POTDs and /Unused and I see that you've taken a number of pictures from /Unused and scheduled them all in June. This is unacceptable, particularly when a number of them have already appeared on the main page--and you've said you want every FP to be a POTD, so why are you running repeats? It's clear to me that you've done this to make a WP:POINT about /Unused, and that's not an acceptable reason. So, over the next few days, I'm going to endeavor to find replacements, and will be replacing the /Unused pictures in the June schedules, and restoring them to /Unused. That's the "something" I'm going to do. Levivich 18:09, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

@Levivich: The thing is, they aren't duplicates. compare:

• 

  Featured picture, completely redrawn as an SVG, with two more people credited and aesthetic tweaks

• 

  Image that appeared on the main page in 2008

There used to be a policy of not featuring things twice, even if the versions were completely redrawn, different versions, &c. This was ended long ago, but a few slipped through the cracks. They are similar, but fundamentally different, especially in credit line. Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 7.9% of all FPs} 23:06, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Those two images are the same image with minor rearrangements made, as is the odd-eyed cat one, the illusion one, and the Rembrandt painting. That these have run, and that we have many that have not run, is a great reason not to pull all four from /Unused and run all four in June, as you've scheduled. The model image has a consensus not to run it on POTD; there will need to be a new discussion to see if consensus has changed before it can be POTD. This may be that discussion, and if so, you'll need to wait for its outcome before the image can be removed from /Unused and scheduled. I don't really care about the guano pic; AFAIK there was no consensus discussion and it hasn't run before, so no objection to running that. I'm not sure if there are any others that were pulled from /Unused and scheduled. June 9 I believe is the earliest scheduled date (the Rembrandt painting) so we have until then to resolve this :-) But the painting shouldn't run again because it's run before; and if we're going to run repeats, there are better repeats to run than that. There's really no reason to put that particular picture on that particular date, particularly given that it's run before. Levivich 23:21, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Maybe I'm wrong, but that painting looks like a very, very different scan, at least as linked. Perhaps I misjudged. As for the others... I'm uncomfortable not running the two SVG versions of images since they represent dozens of hours of work. I've done SVG conversions before; they're hideously finicky. I have absolutely no objections to losing the Odd-eyed cat, which I thought was borderline even at the time. I still say that the place for a Merkin discussion is at FPC, since the objection is it shouldn't be an FPC, but I don't mind shoving it to... well, we're filled up to November now... if that allows proper discussion. I just don't want to throw out people's work. Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 7.9% of all FPs} 23:52, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

• We have very, very different ideas about what "very, very different" means
• 

  POTD from Mar 13, 2009

• 

  POTD scheduled for June 9, 2022

Pintaflores festival in San Carlos, Negros Occidental, Philippines

What does it matter that it's a different scan? It's the same Rembrandt painting. And while the SVG no doubt represents dozens of hours of work, the FP that's not running so that the SVG can run twice also represents dozens of hours of work. "They can both run", you say? Sure: run the one that hasn't run first, then run the one that's run before. For example, for June 9 when the Rembrandt is scheduled, the TFA for that day is about a Philippine film. Instead of re-running the Rembrandt painting, we could run File:Pintaflores Queen.jpg, which is used at San Carlos, Negros Occidental#Tourism. Levivich 00:11, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Because the decision not to block new scans and restorations was made years before I started. Here's some that used to be on POTD/Unused, and their old versions:

• 

  New

• 

  Old

• 

  New

• 

  Old

I didn't set those to run. That's been accepted practice for about 5 years. Also, you know you're suggesting replacing it with something that isn't even an English Wikipedia featured picture? I'm not trying to be rude here, but I'm not sure you understand how POTD works, the history of decisions, or what is meant to appear on it. You're objecting to things like "not blocking an image because a similar one appeared" which I' m pretty sure was Crisco 1492's big change when he took over like, three or four coordinators ago. You're suggesting things as replacements which have not gone through WP:FPC and seem unaware that POTD is meant to roughly run in order of FP promotion. I'd really suggest spending some time reviewing before touching anything. If you want, I'll delay the Merkin image to give you time to do so. Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 7.9% of all FPs} 00:39, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

/Unused is not accepted practice? The 2014 consensus not to have this pic as POTD is not accepted practice? There are over 700 FPs that haven't run on the main page (and many more pics that could be FPs); we can make better choices than to dump a bunch of /Unused and repeats in June. Levivich 05:57, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Unused is little more than notes; barring other discussion, it's not, and never was meant as more than that. Things have always gotten removed from there regularly. I'm quite happy to delay Merkin as long as we need to have a discussion, replacing if the discussion goes that way, but you're taking it as if Unused was a policy page, when it's just the notes of the POTD co-ordinators, and nothing more. For example, a lot of the things on there were literally only on there because the article wasn't good enough at the time.

I don't particularly care about Merkin. If you think it needs more discussion, I'm happy to shove it forwards to the point where the discussion can happen. Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 7.9% of all FPs} 09:50, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

If you want to run Merkin, it's on you to show that consensus has changed. Levivich 12:22, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

That no-one but two people cares to object does show that. I've offered a dozen ways we could move forwards, from a delist nomination at WP:FPC to delaying the image five months to allow time for more discussion, to, you know, having a discussion right here. If all you want to do is complain, though, I may as well not have bothered. You kind of have to stop complaining, and actually interact with the possible solutions, or you may as well not say anything. It doesn't feel like you want a solution that makes everyone happy, and are kind of running out of time for one of them - if the delist nomination doesn't start today, and ideally pretty damn soon today, it won't close in time. Can we please stop faffing around? I'm happy to work with you, as long as you show the slightest sign you want to actually move forwards in a productive way, but pick an option, please. Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 7.9% of all FPs} 14:42, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Here's how you move forward, and these steps are outlined in WP:CCC and WP:RFC:

• Here's the last consensus discussion that was closed with "Consensus is against this being used as POTD."
• Anyone who wants to see if that consensus has changed is welcome to start an RFC, linking to the previous discussion, and explaining why they believe we should come to a different outcome.
• If that RFC is closed with consensus to list it at POTD, then the image can be scheduled at POTD.

By the way, that's the only way forward, per WP:CONSENSUS. You and I don't have the authority to come to some agreement that overrules the 2014 consensus. Sorry, but there is only one way: if you want to list it, you need to gain consensus for that. It's something that the person who wants to list it has to do.

Remember, a "no consensus" outcome would result in the prior from 2014 consensus holding. Levivich 15:34, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

This entire section is getting quite a messy, conflating different topics back and forth. Seems like there are at least 2 things that some community consensus measuring is needed on: (a) Should File:Michele_Merkin_1.jpg be featured on the main page at all? (b) When multiple high quality images of similar content are available, how should main page featuring be determined?

These will likely both have many opinions, the former only really has two outcomes - the later has a range of outcomes. I'm not seeing any extraordinary reason that There is no deadline wouldn't apply here as well. — xaosflux ^Talk 16:00, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

I think the second question is answered same as everything else: order of promotion. Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 7.9% of all FPs} 01:29, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

@Adam Cuerden: Yes, FPs are considered for inclusion in order of promotion. That consideration took place on schedule, and the consensus was not to include. It can be reconsidered at any time, but the consensus doesn't get overturned automatically just because it's the oldest candidate. Certes (talk) 10:04, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

@Levivich: As far as other pics pulled from /Unused are concerned, there's also File:Indecency2.jpg, at Template:POTD/2022-06-21. It was put on the /Unused list for the same reason as the guano picture: a risk of too many immature comments. -BRAINULATOR9 (TALK) 21:56, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

• Thinking about this some more, and having read some of the previous discussions, I would like to hold off on the Merkin image until the 2014 consensus is re-evaluated, should we wish to do so. I do consider that discussion binding still. -BRAINULATOR9 (TALK) 21:56, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
• Just noting I reverted this edit, which changed the date in the section header and OP, as that was confusing. I guess the POTD has been rescheduled from June 13 to Dec 11. I'm glad it was delayed, but I nevertheless believe that anyone who wants to list this at POTD needs to get consensus to overrule the last consensus from 2014 not to list this pic as a POTD. Consensus first, then scheduling, not the other way around. Levivich 16:47, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

  Agreed. -BRAINULATOR9 (TALK) 02:33, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

  The issue seems to be that Adam believes there is no valid reason to not run the picture and that the 2014 consensus deserves a second look since it's from eight years ago. I think we ought to get this cleared up since otherwise we will likely have a very public showdown on this in the not-too-distant future. WaltCip-(talk) 13:39, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

  I think that we should discuss this, but I'm not sure this is a helpful place to do so. Step one is to discuss generally, arguments for and against, step two - before any voting starts is to agree on wording for an RFC, and step 3, only after the other steps, is to have a vote. We have six months. But it's clear that this doesn't fail because of any existing precedent. We've had breasts on the main page before; we've had people in sexualised poses. I linked examples above. The objections seem to be more to do with people questioning if it should be a featured picture in the first place - which is by no means the job of POTD to determine. Rulings shouldn't be arbitrary, they should be precedents that allow you to judge new images against them. For example, the lynching image is blocked on grounds of being exploitative, and more likely to cause harm (make things uncomfortable for our black readers; encourage racists) than be educational (undocumented, questionable choices in imagery). The "Hermaphrodite" image could hurt our intersex readers. We have a clear precedent of being careful with images that could potentially cause harm that can be applied to images going forwards. Look at the organisation of Wikipedia:Picture of the day/Unused. Everything currently on there has extremely good reasons why it's on there, and images can be readily judged against those reasons, easily identifying those images that should at least be discussed.

But the Merkin blocking has no real logic to it. Judgement that it shouldn't be an FPC are reasonable judgements - but that's something dealt with with a delist nomination, which I will point out, no-one actually wants to do. If someone put it up to be delisted on FPC, and it got delisted, then of course it wouldn't run. But it really feels like people want to complain more than waning to actually move forwards in any constructive way whatsoever. Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 7.9% of all FPs} 15:00, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

@Adam Cuerden: You have made it clear that you do not understand why people do not want to have "the Merkin image" as a picture of the day. As coordinator of POTD, is your role to do whatever you think is right, or is your role to assist the community in choosing images for POTD? You seem to have unilaterally removed images from the "unused" list and deliberately set out to use those specific images as POTDs. You state as much in your draft opinion piece for the Signpost. You were aware of the previous objections to these images, but it does not appear that you made any attempt to discuss their use before scheduling them as POTD. Perhaps you did, but I don't know where that was done. I don't think that "the Merkin image" is the only issue here. I think there needs to be a more general discussion about your actions and the role of the POTD coordinator. Polycarpa aurata (talk) 16:22, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

@Polycarpa aurata, perhaps the new WP:Administrator action review would be an appropriate forum for such a discussion.

On the Merkin image, there's been lots said above, so the only thing I'll add is that, if we are to run the image, I think it's essential that we discuss whether or not it's been airbrushed in the caption. We're an encyclopedia, which means emphasizing verifiable truth, and that applies equally to images as it does to article text. If she didn't actually look like that in person, we should not be writing "this is Merkin", but rather "this is a digitally altered likeness of Merkin". {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 18:29, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

You do realise that those images in the Unused list, by and large, were arbitrarily added by past co-ordinators. I did say on here that I was going to look into clearing some of the list. I don't know why you're surprised that I did exactly what I said I'd do i f I accepred the position. Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 7.9% of all FPs} 18:38, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Where on here did you say that? Did anyone agree with you or say "yes please do that" or otherwise encourage this? And exactly what was the process by which you became POTD coord? Levivich 19:15, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

look, in the end, there is a proverture for dealing wwith images you feel shouldn't be an FP: Delisting. It takes 10 days, and a quorum of 5 delist votes. What do you have against that? Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 7.9% of all FPs} 19:23, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

My problem is that you're deciding, unilaterally, that if I don't want it on the main page, I have to take affirmative steps t prevent it. The answers to my questions, in order, are: nowhere, no one, and none, correct? Levivich 19:24, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Nope. But, frankly, I'm realising that you're a bad actor: I've offered to compromise with you numerous times. I've even delayed it six months, and that simply because I don't want to delete the work setting up the POTD if we decide it's going to run. It's basically on indefinite delay. But I'd seriously like you to actually engage with my suggestions for how to move forwards. Because if your only reaction to suggestions, and me literally giving in to your demands and pulling it from running tomorrow which it would have done had I not acted is to continue attacking me, then there really is no reason for me to engage. YOU DIDN'T STOP IT RUNNING TOMORROW, I DID. And I did so because, despite how you are trying to paint me, I want to try and deal with the objection. Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 7.9% of all FPs} 19:23, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

@Adam Cuerden Sorry, you're saying the only way to prevent a featured image from appearing as POTD is by delisting it? We can't just decide not to use it as a POTD? Polycarpa aurata (talk) 19:35, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

@Polycarpa aurata: No, there's other ways, of course there are. We have a whole class of examples of reasons on Wikipedia:POTD/Unused. But, when the objection is that it shouldn't be a featured picture at all, it feels like the simplest and the most relevant. If it shouldn't be a POTD because it's not good enough to be a featured picture, well, then... why are we discussing it here, when we can really readily deal with both issues in one go. The date it's currently set to is intended to hold the set up POTD blurb so that it doesn't have to be remade from scratch if it's decided to run it. But if the objection is something more than simply "it doesn't deserve to be a Featured Picture", then we should note that on POTD/Unused as a reason for things to be held, specifically so we don't put other images that hit the same problem. That's why I'm trying to get people to explain their reasons, and why I'm finding this so damn frustrating. If the problem is the image itself isn't good enough to be a featured picture, great. I don't even like it. But if there's a more fundamental reason, then we should really decide what that is and make a specific note of it, and pull any FPs that might fall under that category up for special discussion. Just like how discussing the lynching image made it clear that another reason to avoid it is that it was exploiting the victim's likeness, which might well affect images we didn't consider, like the posed photos of dead Confederate soldiers from the American Civil War, and means that they should be flagged up for discussion. Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 7.9% of all FPs} 19:47, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

@Adam Cuerden The issue of the image as a "featured picture" is a red herring that you introduced in response to Levivich saying "it's not a good picture" for POTD. That really isn't the issue here. For me, the issue is that you have quite deliberately queued up a series of images which I find puerile and/or sexist.I don't want to say that you tried to sneak them in, but I think you should have asked for some input since you knew these images had previously been rejected. POTD isn't something I have any experience with, but I know that I don't want to see a shitting bird, or a pissing woman, or a cheesecake model being promoted on the front page of Wikipedia. Polycarpa aurata (talk) 20:09, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

@Polycarpa aurata:The shitting bird is on the front page today and illustrates appropriately a very interesting blurb about guano. Do you still object to it? Nobody else has so far. I think Adam has done a very good job in bringing this to the front page, and I tend to back his mature judgement about the other controversial pictures also. Jmchutchinson (talk) 10:33, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

@Polycarpa aurata: The thing is, as I've said, things get cleared from POTD/Unused all the time. If you check the history of the page you'll see it happening. Every new POTD co-ordinator has cleared out a few. There's no weight of policy to the Unused page, it's simply notes made by previous POTD co-ordinators.

We're better off having actual rules as opposed to arbitrary ones, because POTD/Unused is... bizarrely arbitrary if you actually follow POTD for any length of time. Kind of has a bunch of things that were pulled, while other, more extreme images weren't. Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 7.9% of all FPs} 20:26, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

[Comment about replacing enwp's FPC process removed by request. Anyone interested can visit my talk page] — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 20:21, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Discussion about orange tags in main page links

Hi all, just to note that I have started a discussion about whether orange tags are permitted in DYK articles at Wikipedia_talk:Did_you_know#Orange_maintenance_tags?. I'm mentioning it here at Talk:Main page as well, on the basis that this might be an area where there's supposed to be a universal main-page standard, and watchers of the main page who aren't directly involved in DYK may want to weigh in. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 14:53, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

I'd probably allow a tag indicating missing content for POTD, but mainly because the image is the focus, with the article secondary, so as long as it didn't have any issues with verifiability. DYK, however, is focused on articles themselves, and it feels strange to allow maintenance tags. I suppose "Expand section" isn't so bad, though. Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 7.9% of all FPs} 02:01, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Update layout of Wikipedia:Main Page/Yesterday and Wikipedia:Main Page/Tomorrow

Main Page equivalents for yesterday and tomorrow should be brought up-to-date, layout-wise.

Please copy wikitext from Special:Permalink/1093436928 to Wikipedia:Main Page/Yesterday.

• Diff with current: Special:Diff/977377135/1093436928.
• Diff with Main Page: Special:Diff/1093015244/1093436928.

Please copy wikitext from Special:Permalink/1093436785 to Wikipedia:Main Page/Tomorrow.

• Diff with current: Special:Diff/936684486/1093436785.
• Diff with Main Page: Special:Diff/1093015244/1093436785.

For Tomorrow's view, I've also checked it using Special:ExpandTemplates, since Template:DYKbotdo has a pagename check for Wikipedia:Main Page/Tomorrow.

Courtesy pings: to Izno, who worked on Main Page updates, and Ravenpuff, who worked on updating Wikipedia:Main Page/Day after tomorrow. —⁠andrybak (talk) 16:24, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

 Done — xaosflux ^Talk 22:46, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Page Popup

I'm not sure if this question has been asked before but I feel it needs attention: When there is an internal link to the main page, the popup shows that "There was an issue displaying this preview". I think that the text could somehow be replaced with something more friendly, such as "The Wikipedia Main Page". Thanks! Urban Versis 32^KB ⚡ ^{(talk | contribs)} 05:40, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

It's likely because the mainpage is really all templates, there isn't any wikitext to parse - which popups are you using? — xaosflux ^Talk 08:29, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

I think they're the ones enabled by default, see the image:

Wikipedia Main Page popup

Urban Versis 32^KB ⚡ ^{(talk | contribs)} 14:27, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Note: from MediaWiki:Popups-preview-no-preview. — xaosflux ^Talk 16:47, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

This may be expected behavior, may want to follow up at mw:Talk:Page Previews. — xaosflux ^Talk 16:51, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks Urban Versis 32^KB ⚡ ^{(talk | contribs)} 16:52, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Tools/Navigation_popups provides inflation in setting a preview image. Perhaps if we set it to the Wikipedia logo? Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 7.9% of all FPs} 16:54, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

@Adam Cuerden I think the OP is talking about the Popups base feature, not the navpop gadget. — xaosflux ^Talk 16:57, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Ach, the help pages on this stuff is really badly disambiguated. Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 7.9% of all FPs} 19:37, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

I think that's for navigation popups, not Page Previews. I'm asking at the link that @Xaosflux mentioned. Urban Versis 32^KB ⚡ ^{(talk | contribs)} 17:00, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

No issues using Wikipedia:Tools/Navigation popups. - FlightTime (open channel) 17:10, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Yes, when using the Nav popups it will simply show the title and the links instead of showing that there was an issue. Urban Versis 32^KB ⚡ ^{(talk | contribs)} 17:20, 18 June 2022 (UTC)