Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement

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Shirshore

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Shirshore

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Kzl55 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 01:00, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Shirshore (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search DS alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Horn_of_Africa#Final_decision

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 14:26, 19 March 2022 Edit-warring on Sanaag.
2. 14:38, 19 March 2022 Edit-warring on Sanaag.
3. 15:35, 19 March 2022 Edit-warring on Sanaag.
4. 15:06, 19 March 2022 Edit-warring on Sool.
5. 15:36, 19 March 2022 Edit-warring on Sool.
6. 19:05, 19 March 2022 Edit-warring on Sool.
7. 20:34, 19 March 2022 Edit-warring on Sool.
8. 15:19, 24 March 2022 POV edit in which Shirshore removed almost 20% of the article by blanking a sourced section wholly with the summary: Removed derogatory content which belittles group concerned. This demeaning content should not be allowed on Wikipedia.
9. 20:05, 24 March 2022 Shirshore removed an entire sourced section of the article with the edit summary: Removed derogatory and degrading text not suitable for Wikipedia. This is abhorrent and can’t be allowed on Wikipedia". This appears to have been an edit they've made from a mobile device.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

1. 15:42, 16 April 2021 Shirshore was reported for engaging in the same kind of disruptive POV edit warring behaviour on some of the same articles included in this report (e.g. [1]), as a result of the report they were blocked.

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

• Alerted about discretionary sanctions on 20:12, 15 April 2021

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Editor has been engaging in disruptive editing for sometime within the Horn of Africa space, particularly within Somaliland/Somalia articles. Their edit summaries indicate they are only interested in pushing a specific viewpoint and are more than willing to erase sourced content they dont like using "derogatory" as justification (e.g. from 2019: Removed derogatory and inflammatory material on the Derivsh period. This material, although sourced cannot be allowed on Wikipedia. [2], vs 2022: Removed derogatory content which belittles group concerned. This demeaning content should not be allowed on Wikipedia [3]. Please see User_talk:Kzl55#Dhulbahante_-_Dervish_Period. for a discussion in which this behaviour was discussed and Wikipedia guidelines were explained to them. They've been sanctioned last year for the the same disruptive edit warring behaviour [4]#User:Shirshore_reported_by_User:Dabaqabad_(Result:_Blocked).

They do not seem to care all that much for edit-warring warnings as they have gone back to edit warring within minutes of the notice [[5]], [6].They are clearly not here to build an encyclopedia. As such I request a WP:NOTHERE ban, failing that I think a permanent topic ban from Horn-related articles is the minimum necessary sanction. Kind regards -- Kzl55 (talk) 01:00, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

• Seems like the discussion was automatically archived by a bot, as such I've restored it pending a decision from admins. Best regards --Kzl55 (talk) 00:39, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[[7]]

Discussion concerning Shirshore

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Shirshore

The content removed is derogatory and inflammatory towards the group concerned. I don’t believe such content should be on Wikipedia, it can be deemed abusive should be removed off the platform. However, if other editors believe it to be constructive I will cease editing. Regards

• I don’t think there is need for a topic ban or a block. Since my editing has been received as disruptive I can simply cease editing controversial issues to avoid conflict before consensus is reached with other editors. I think my contribution to the project overall has been constructive and I have helped improve the quality of articles concerning the Horn of Africa in general. I have a lot of knowledge on the region and ultimately I seek to dispense that in a neutral and balanced manner for readers. Unfortunately, I see that many articles have evolved to form a bias towards one entity over another, and my endeavours to correct that has been misconstrued by editors who consent to that bias, hence this engagement here. Nevertheless, I’m more familiar with Wikipedia guidelines and I intend to observe them in all my edits in the future. I’m not here to be disruptive, I’m here to contribute to the platform in a meaningful way. Kind regards!

Statement by Freetrashbox

I don't disagree with TBAN because I have several problems with Shirshore's edits, especially this one. However, the same goes for Kzl55 and Jacob300 for joining in the editing battle. It is clear from the BBC and VOA articles that these areas are disputed areas. Kzl55 and Jacob300 are clearly violating WP:POV and there is no doubt that their edits are frustrating their opponents. I have had several dialogues with Jacob300, but they simply repeat their arguments with the latest version fixed to their preferred edit (and their logic is that "as long as no consensus has been formed, the current version should be adopted,") and I rarely feel that a consensus can be formed in a dialogue with them. It would induce hasty and emotional editing. If their editorial attitude is not changed, it seems likely that similar examples will follow. I have been a long-time participant in the Japanese Wikipedia, but the situation in this topic on the English Wikipedia is extraordinary.--Freetrashbox (talk) 21:36, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

Additional comment @El C: I re-read my post above, and I apologize for the content that could be taken to suggest that the English Wikipedia is inferior to the Japanese version. I mainly translate English Wikipedia articles into Japanese version, and I browse in a wide range of fields, including science, culture, geography, and history. Compared to those, there are many editorial battles in this field to rewrite A into B (and B into A), and the articles are not being enriched in spite of this. Editorial battles are generally caused by both sides. I think it is good idea that both be mentioned jointly, but it seems to me that this is being rejected by both sides participating in this field in the Somaliland/Somalia(Puntland) capacity.--Freetrashbox (talk) 08:13, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

Result concerning Shirshore

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• Recommend an indef WP:BROADLY WP:TBAN. Even though editing WP:HORN pages is all Shirshore appears to do on the project, so I'm not sure how open they'd be to that, still, at a minimum, I believe this is what's required to curb the disruption. If they are able to edit productively elsewhere for, say, 6 months, appealing this sanction would have a fair chance of success. El_C 11:56, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

• There was also a June AN3 report (warned) and I think their talk page speaks for itself. They have made 7 edits between Aug 2021 and Jan 2022. Anyway, there needs to be strong assurances, at this point, I think (I've yet to see any at any point), which a TBAN is the ultimate test of. I still think it's due. El_C 14:46, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

• Freetrashbox, excuse me if I take long-time participant in the Japanese Wikipedia with an extra grain of salT, knowing what I know about the alarming extent of historical revisionism on that language project. Anyway, the general convention on the English Wikipedia is to refer to de facto independent (self-declared) states by their own names rather than the countries from which they had separated from.

Somalia vs Somaliland naming conventions disruption had been a perennial problem on Wikipedia for as long as I can remember. Now, wrt the Puntland–Somaliland dispute, maybe Somalia and Somaliland could both be mentioned jointly in the Sanaag and Sool infoboxes, as a compromise. It doesn't necessarily need to be either or, all or nothing, etc. But that discussion needs to, well, exist. It needs to have the foundation to exist. A foundation which WP:BATTLEGROUND editing work very much against. El_C 01:57, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

• This is two cases of edit warring on two article in a couple of days. Not sure I would jump to a topic ban just yet, although I understand if that is how it goes. Their last (and only) block was by EdJohnston in August of last year for 72 hours for similar. Being that this is in such a short period of time, and I think their intentions are good (although their execution is horrible), I would be more inclined to issue a strong block, one week, standard admin action, then go to a topic ban if this continues (3rd strike). I don't think this is a matter of someone who is inclined to be disruptive, but rather, someone who gets something in their mind and won't let it go; a habit they need to break. They also need to read WP:BRD, ie: if you are the one trying to introduce new material, YOU are the one that needs to go to the talk page after you are reverted, then build consensus. Or accept you don't have consensus. In other words, take your own advice.[8] Dennis Brown - 2¢ 14:08, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
  • Those are two very valid points, I had missed the prior warning. I have to admit, I'm a bit warmer to the idea of a topic ban now, particularly give the limited scope. The warning was appropriate in that episode was not the most egregious violation of edit warring, but the same problem was going on, a fundamental misunderstanding (or flat out ignoring) of WP:BRD. Again, I'm not against the topic ban so much I like trying to be less aggressive, but you do make a strong case for a tban. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 15:44, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
• I hate to admit it, but I'm coming down on the side of a TBAN. The chronic edit warring is pretty clearly disruptive, and it's gone on for long enough. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 02:21, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

Reasoned Inquiry

No AE-enforcement action needed at this time, though Reasoned Inquiry is cautioned that dominating talk page conversations, per WP:BLUDGEON, is frowned upon, and may lead to behavioral sanctions in the future. --Jayron32 12:13, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Request concerning Reasoned Inquiry User who is submitting this request for enforcement Tgeorgescu (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 18:25, 3 April 2022 (UTC) User against whom enforcement is requested Reasoned Inquiry (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Search DS alerts: in user talk history • in system log Sanction or remedy to be enforced Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/CASENAME#SECTION WP:ARBPS and WP:ARBCAM Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it [9] 3 April 2022 Does not heed WP:DROPTHESTICK [10] 3 April 2022 Does not heed hint of WP:AE [11] 3 April 2022 Does not heed hint of WP:AE Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts) [12] Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see the system log linked to above. Additional comments by editor filing complaint @Reasoned Inquiry: You were not uncivil. You were just doing WP:PUSH. tgeorgescu (talk) 13:09, 6 April 2022 (UTC) Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested [13] tgeorgescu (talk) 18:27, 3 April 2022 (UTC) Discussion concerning Reasoned Inquiry Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks. Statement by Reasoned Inquiry I'll try to keep this statement as lean as possible. I see a big misunderstanding of my conduct in the electromagnetic hypersensitivity talk page surrounding this AE action. My intention was certainly not to indulge in argumentation. I used the talk page solely for the purpose of engaging discussion about the substance of my position. My position was entirely misrepresented over the course of the discussion and my activity in the talk page represents my failed attempts to correct this view with my interlocutors. I use reason/logic to clarify misunderstandings generally because it seems to be the ideal way of making that happen. I intend no antagonism with this; I simply have a style that relies on it, hence my handle name. Blatant misrepresentations are demonstrated with invocations of WP:EXCEPTIONAL. This standard is unclear outside the implication that "EHS has a scientific basis" is a part of my claim. It is not a part of my claim and I further rule it out specifically here: [14] Here are the responses from @tgeorgescu and @Alexbrn that appeared after this comment, implying my claim meets criteria as an exceptional claim in some way: [15] [16] [17] [18] My position is that science has not cast a judgment against EHS[19] [20] and that's the only basis for my proposed edit. So I do not understand why my position was not considered as such. This brings me to the subject of consensus, which I felt was far from clear cut due to these circumstances. This was the spirit of the message I intended to convey to @Meters, (albeit I did not express it well). I did not mean to dismiss @Meters' point, although I see how I might have accidentally allowed that to happen. Generally, I agree with the points they made. I hope this message helps. Reasoned Inquiry (talk) 16:10, 5 April 2022 (UTC) Allow me to add my views on WP:TALKDONTREVERT: "Editors with good social skills and good negotiation skills are more likely to be successful than those who are less than civil to others." I have poor social and negotiation skills since this essentially comes with the territory of having autism spectrum disorder. Having been put in opposition to being "less than civil" tells me Wikipedia might understand my nature as being uncivil. I try very hard to be fair with representing other views accurately and respond in kind. None of this is challenged by the specifics of the AE action (with the possible exception of my response to @Meters, partly because my message was poorly expressed, and partly because I thought their first-time appearance very late into the discussion meant they might not have been aware of certain details, which does not convey in a standalone diff). By all appearances, I communicate in a style editors do not want since the minor mistakes I make as a newcomer to Wikipedia take the spotlight over the clear misrepresentations from @Tgeorgescu and @Alexbrn. I write long messages -while rooted in concise language- so that I am not misunderstood; but it happens anyway. I have no idea what I'm supposed to learn from this AE action outside the basic instruction not to pursue this anymore, as though there were some general assumption I want to violate the policies/guidelines/etcetera (and would attempt this in the future by reopening discussion). I do not have this intent and I would like to know why my conduct is being seen as a potential problem. There is more I could discuss; but I do not want to bother the admins with additional long messages. I hope this message helps me. Reasoned Inquiry (talk) 13:00, 6 April 2022 (UTC) @Tgeorgescu This is the first anyone in that discussion has mentioned WP:PUSH, which I've never seen before now. Reasoned Inquiry (talk) 14:46, 6 April 2022 (UTC) Statement by (username) Result concerning Reasoned Inquiry This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above. Reasoned Inquiry has not edited the article Electromagnetic hypersensitivity. (They are autoconfirmed, so not prevented from editing it.) They're certainly argumentative on the talkpage, and the sheer mass of their posts is more of a problem than Tgeorgescu's three diffs above, in my opinion. Being unimpressed by hints of AE is no wikicrime. (Just brushing off Meters's very reasonable point[21] is not a good look, though). But I don't see any of it as rising to a discretionary sanction. Why doesn't one of you guys just close the thread with a note about the (obvious) consensus? If RI then starts another long argument about a similar wording change, WP:BLUDGEON may come into play. Bishonen | tålk 21:31, 3 April 2022 (UTC). I agree with Bishonen's analysis. The talkpage discussion has been closed, so hopefully the matter is now resolved. Newyorkbrad (talk) 16:01, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

BritishToff

Indefinitely blocked for disruptive editing as a standard admin action. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:55, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Request concerning BritishToff User who is submitting this request for enforcement Pokelova (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 01:21, 4 April 2022 (UTC) User against whom enforcement is requested BritishToff (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Search DS alerts: in user talk history • in system log Sanction or remedy to be enforced Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gender and sexuality Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it 16:44, 3 April 2022 Deliberate deadnaming 16:46, 3 April 2022 Deliberate misgendering 17:04, 3 April 2022 Disruptive edits on transgender topics 17:16, 3 April 2022 Disruptive edits on transgender topics Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any 23:46, 21 March 2022 Previously alerted to Gender and sexuality sanctions 02:03, 24 March 2022 Previously blocked for disruptive editing Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ABritishToff&type=revision&diff=1080881862&oldid=1080869102 Discussion concerning BritishToff Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks. Statement by BritishToff Statement by (username) Result concerning BritishToff This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

David Gerard

Not a violation. Everyone seems to be on the same page now, so closing without action. I do recommend discussing the source's suitability (reliability) at the proper venue. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 20:53, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Request concerning David Gerard User who is submitting this request for enforcement Nableezy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 14:33, 5 April 2022 (UTC) User against whom enforcement is requested David Gerard (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Search DS alerts: in user talk history • in system log Sanction or remedy to be enforced Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel_articles_4#ARBPIA_General_Sanctions Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it 17:45, 4 April 2022‎ previously removed this source here and reverted here making this the first revert 19:18, 4 April 2022 Second reflexive revert within 2 hours of the first Refused to self-revert Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any N/A If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts) Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, here Additional comments by editor filing complaint I know David is a popular person around these parts, I know his crusade against sources he finds subpar to have varying levels of support. But Benny Morris is very obviously among the five best sources for Palestinian right of return and calling him "extremist" or "fringe" is either over the line or nudging up against the line of a BLP violation. Im sure he will say things like "white nationalist blog", but Morris was responding to somebody else in the same forum his views were attacked, and if Morris were to write his views on a soiled piece of toilet paper and sign his name to it that would still be a usable source here. Regardless, that is a question for the talk page or RSN, neither of which Mr Gerard has seen fit to consult. Instead, as per the usual MO, edit warring to WP:RGW without paying even the tiniest bit of attention to what it is he is removing. This is a clear 1RR violation, one in which the editor has refused to self-revert, and it should be met with a block or topic ban Dennis, I call it a revert because it was David who previously removed it and had it restored. I dont know how one can claim they can repeat an edit they've previously made and had reverted anything other than a revert. nableezy - 14:51, 5 April 2022 (UTC) Also, for the record, and for why the removal of the is improper, there is now in our article a direct quote to Morris, "who had just attacked the Jewish community", which is not in what is now the only source cited (this interview in Haaretz). The quote is from the now expunged source, making David's edit an issue of source falsification in which we claim a quote is available in a source which does not contain it. Making this just the latest example of this editor recklessly and carelessly removing things they have not even pretended to look at. nableezy - 15:05, 5 April 2022 (UTC) I dont intend to engage in the silliness about arguing whether or not Benny Morris is a reliable source, since that is an abjectly absurd argument to have, but this is a simple issue of counting. Can David remove something, be reverted, and then come back some months later to remove it again and that not be a revert? Or is an editor periodically returning to make the same edit that has previously been contested a revert? I think it obvious given his removal in October that the first removal yesterday was a revert and his second removal yesterday his second revert. nableezy - 15:15, 5 April 2022 (UTC) Newyorkbrad could you please explain how this repetition of this previous removal is not a revert? Genuinely curious as to how that is possible, because there are a number of edits Ive made 6 months ago I could repeat if they are no longer reverts. nableezy - 16:05, 5 April 2022 (UTC) Newyorkbrad normally I would agree with you 6 months is plenty long to ignore, except for the fact that it is David repeating his own edit. If this had been removed by some other person back in October then sure calling it a revert would be a stretch. But when David repeats his own edit, an edit that was reverted, I dont see how one can claim that is not a revert. You are essentially, if this is to be carried out with any consistency, allowing users to periodically return with a new first-movers advantage to push their view through edit-warring. As far as a "better source", there is no better source for Morris' own views than Morris himself, even if he is writing in a less than reputable publication. I agree it should be discussed on the talk page, a place David has never found himself. nableezy - 16:21, 5 April 2022 (UTC) Um the two reverts I am listing here are two hours apart, not 6 months apart. I feel like I am in crazy town here. nableezy - 16:30, 5 April 2022 (UTC) Jayron32 if that is the definition decided here then fine, but then expect any repeated edit I make 6 months after the last time it was attempted to be claimed to be an "edit" and not a "revert". You are opening things up to all sorts of gaming here by restoring a first-movers advantage to somebody who just waits some period of time to return their contested edits. As far as the claim of "hunting through someone's editing history, trying to play "gotcha" over edits half a year apart", a the edit in question from October is in the last fifteen edits of that page, and b. I saw it at the time and raised it here then, with David at the time seeming to acknowledge his error in removing it here and here. I didnt have to hunt through anything, I just had to remember the last time he pulled this crap. nableezy - 17:00, 5 April 2022 (UTC) So let me get this straight, "After a 6 month difference, I think we can consider this a normal edit." only applies in this specific instance with this specific editor? That isnt a definition of anything, it is just how the interpretation this one specific instance, never to be referenced again as though it applies in any other situation with the exact same sequence? nableezy - 17:30, 5 April 2022 (UTC) No Jayron, I am not twisting anything at all by quoting you. By saying I will accept the precedent established that an edit repeated after six months is not a revert I am not announcing an intent to game the system. Odd for somebody to write WP:AGF as often as it appears in your comments to then repeatedly assume my bad faith. If an edit six months apart is not a revert by an admin then I will expect that same determination for edits six months apart by anybody else. Unless you really would like to more formally declare that admins are indeed covered by a "rules for thee but not for me" policy. nableezy - 17:51, 5 April 2022 (UTC) It is not this one admin said this one time, it would be if a consensus here finds that an edit repeated after 6 months is not a revert, then I would expect that consensus to stand for future such edits. Here we have David making an edit, being reverted, then re-doing his edit 6 months later. With multiple admins claiming that the intervening six months makes it so that this restoring of his preferred version is not a revert. If that is the case for David it should be the case for everybody else. This game of we dont establish precedents and I wont be held accountable for my positions in the future very obviously leads to an unfair and unjust system in which different users are treated in different ways for objectively the same actions. Do you really feel that is acceptable? I do not. So yes, if the consensus of this discussion is that 6 months time wipes away the status of revert for repeating ones edit then I will expect that same treatment. Obviously since I am not one of the anointed ones with the bit I may not get that treatment, but I sure as hell will be referencing the hypocrisy of such a decision if it does not hold. You cant just say for David returning after six months negates any status of a revert but for me it would be gaming. That is unfair and unjust and it is not sealioning to say so. We are all supposed to follow the same rules of the road here. You cant say well David didnt blow a red light for six months so this first rolling stop is not going to be counted against him, but for others (me) no such deference will be given. nableezy - 18:31, 5 April 2022 (UTC) Thanks Dennis, I appreciate your kind tone (and Floqs and NYB for that matter), and I am fine with that honestly, I just find it to be opening things up to game-playing, but so long as there is consistency in that definition of a revert for all of us then Im cool with it. nableezy - 19:51, 5 April 2022 (UTC) Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested Notified Discussion concerning David Gerard Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks. Statement by David Gerard This appears from the diffs provided to be a second revert within six months, not within 24 hours. Literally the ARBPIA ruling that Nableezy links says: Each editor is limited to one revert per page per 24 hours. There is no case to answer here. The source removed was from the white nationalist blog American Thinker. Although it hasn't been formally deprecated, I think it's jawdroppingly obvious that it's the sort of source that absolutely shouldn't be used in Wikipedia. Here's an RSN discussion from 2018 setting out its issues, for example. This shouldn't even be a difficult call. Even if Morris is a great source, that doesn't mean every instance of him saying things is a suitable source for Wikipedia use. I note also that Nableezy is already constructing a conspiracy theory as to why his action here will fail, in the course of raising the action. In any case, we have the RS. If the quote isn't in that, remove the quote, don't put back the obviously terrible source - David Gerard (talk) 15:11, 5 April 2022 (UTC) Statement by Kyohyi Completely uninvolved in terms of this dispute. I'm just seeing some rather confounding comments by admins. What is a revert is defined in policy, policy says to revert is to undo another editor's actions. It does not give a time frame in which this has to happen. If enforcing admins wish to include a time frame then they should be modifying the existing sanction, or seek to change policy language. But to characterize the first revert on April 4th as a non-revert has no standing in policy. --Kyohyi (talk) 17:08, 5 April 2022 (UTC) The policy language is clear, to revert is to undo another editor's actions. Period. That's policy, as documented in WP: EW. Do these removals undo someone else's actions? Obviously they do, since wikipedia articles and content are non-existant until someone creates them. So someone added this, and David Gerard removed it. That's a revert. It doesn't get much more explicit than this. (Using the undo button is obviously more explicit than this)--Kyohyi (talk) 17:34, 5 April 2022 (UTC) The point I am making is that the look back time is irrelevant to how policy defines a revert. That content exists on Wikipedia indicative of someone having added it. Removing that content is always going to be a revert regardless of when the content was added. That is because any removal is always an undoing of what someone else added. And a revert is an undo of another editor's actions. Policy is clear on this. --Kyohyi (talk) 17:40, 5 April 2022 (UTC) Whether or not you choose to block the editor, or issue a warning, or do something else is your prerogative. Whether or not something is a revert is documented in policy. --Kyohyi (talk) 18:01, 5 April 2022 (UTC) Nobody is playing word games. What is a revert, as well as it's exceptions are spelled out in our edit warring policy. Whether or not a violation is worthy of a sanction is different from whether or not something was a violation in the first place. Something that is a minor violation, but doesn't warrant a sanction, can come to warrant a sanction if continued over a prolonged period of time. Something that isn't a violation at all should not.--Kyohyi (talk) 18:24, 5 April 2022 (UTC) Statement by (username) Result concerning David Gerard This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above. Not sure I would call the first diff a "revert", since it was added Oct of 2021 [22]. David first removed the source just before that latest addition, also in October [23]. David does seem to have an obvious problem with https://www.americanthinker.com, although I'm not sure if that is withing the remit of WP:AE. I think it all boils down to whether you call that first edit a "revert" or not, and (again) since the edit was removing material that was inserted many months ago, I'm not sure. At the very least, it does seem against the spirit of 1RR. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 14:44, 5 April 2022 (UTC) I understand your frustration nableezy, hence why I said it felt like it was against the spirit of the policy, but it is within policy. Floquenbeam sums it up better than I did, below. The first "reinstatement" (if we call it that) really wasn't a revert. There isn't a specific time that must pass before reinstating a prior edit isn't really a revert, but I'm pretty sure 6 months qualifies. That means, from a technical perspective, we have one edit and 2 hours later, one revert, even if he does gain first mover advantage via 1RR. But in the end, there is no violation. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 19:41, 5 April 2022 (UTC) Not a comment on David's actions but it is important to remember that RSOPINION exists and thus regardless of the quality of the source, as long as it is not on a BLP, there is a potential to use that otherwise nonRS, but editors should discuss the expertness of the writer and whether the view merits DUE inclusion. Which is all stuff to debate on talk pages. --Masem (t) 15:45, 5 April 2022 (UTC) No violation. In lieu of further reverts, please discuss use of this source on the talkpage. If this person's point of view is notable enough to include, shouldn't there be a better source for what his view is? Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:58, 5 April 2022 (UTC) @Nableezy:Thank you for your question. It may not be entirely clear how far back in an article-history one needs to look in evaluating whether an edit constitutes a "revert" in wiki-speak, but a look-back period of six months seems excessive to me. Even if others disagree and consider that there was a technical violation here, its borderline nature would still militate against enforcement action on this report. As I mentioned above, the substantive issue here should be resolved by finding one or more additional sources of better quality, if available. This should be discussed on the talkpage. Newyorkbrad (talk) 16:13, 5 April 2022 (UTC) I'm with NYB here. No violation. The text of the arbitration sanction says "Each editor is limited to one revert per page per 24 hours on any edits made to content within the area of conflict." While I would think that reverts that were close to, but slightly outside of 24 hours, might be "gaming the system", and could warrant something, reverts made 6 months apart in no way represents a violation here. I'm much more concerned that someone is hunting through someone's editing history, trying to play "gotcha" over edits half a year apart... --Jayron32 16:27, 5 April 2022 (UTC) @Nableezy: What I am saying is that your characterization of two edits separated by 6 months do not constitute a revert. The 17:45 edit is not a revert under any normal understanding of the term. After a 6 month difference, I think we can consider this a normal edit. The only revert is then the 19:18 edit. That is the first edit I would consider a revert for the purposes of XRR. --Jayron32 16:50, 5 April 2022 (UTC) I'm not "defining" anything for any other purpose, nor establishing any rules here. Rules get decided only by community consensus, and if you want to start a discussion elsewhere to establish consensus to establish parameters (up to and including no time limit), then feel free to have that discussion elsewhere. We have no guidance on the matter, so we're left with assessing the situation on our own, and deciding what is the best way forward, with only WP:AGF and other similar rules as our guidance. With the lens of "we have no rules on this" and "I don't see evidence of bad-faith acting here", I'm considering his first edit on the day in question a normal edit. This is not a rule, and if you came in here tomorrow with another person in a different situation, the evidence may point in a different direction. That would include statements that the person intended ahead of time to test the limits of admins patience by deliberately making two such edits 6 months apart, knowing ahead of time that this conversation had occurred. Every situation is unique, and needs to be assessed on its own merits. If you want a rule, do the work of establishing a new rule. Don't make claims that "one time this one decision was made, so it's now a rule". That's not how rules get made. --Jayron32 17:24, 5 April 2022 (UTC) No, and I must say Nableezy, this is becoming a sealion level of WP:BLUDGEON, but I will try one last time to avert your deliberate twisting of my words. A facile description of a situation, absence of context, is not a good way of solving problems. Context matters, and simply saying there are two hypothetical situations where edits were made 6 months apart does not make the rest of the context around those situations the same. It rarely is. If faced with another case of such a situation, maybe the decision would go differently. For example, if the person in question announced ahead of time they had intended to " make 6 months after the last time it was attempted to be claimed to be an "edit" and not a "revert"." that is context for making a decision that would make that case different from this case. See, in this case, we have no such intent to game the system. We merely have these edits, and have to make sense of what to do about them. In this case, we have nothing more than these edits, and your characterization of them. With all due respect, I tend to ignore anyone's characterization. I look at the diffs. The dates and times of the diffs lead me to the conclusion that this is not a violation. If you have other diffs that act as evidence to change my opinion on the matter, please provide them, if you just have more assertions and your own characterizations, I've seen enough of those, TYVM, and I consider this my final analysis of the situation. --Jayron32 17:45, 5 April 2022 (UTC) This is not a court of law, we don't establish precedent. We apply the principles of behavior at Wikipedia the best we can to allow smooth operation of the encyclopedia. Don't try to read rules from these discussions. I'm not a king. I am not more important than you, or David, or anyone else. I am providing my opinion on this matter. My opinion, insofar as any decision is made on this matter based on it, only counts for this discussion here. If you want to make a rule, there are ways to do that at Wikipedia, but "This one admin said this one time..." is not rulemaking. --Jayron32 17:55, 5 April 2022 (UTC) @Kyohyi Let me reiterate what NYB said, "It may not be entirely clear how far back in an article-history one needs to look in evaluating whether an edit constitutes a "revert" in wiki-speak, but a look-back period of six months seems excessive to me. Even if others disagree and consider that there was a technical violation here, its borderline nature would still militate against enforcement action on this report." If other admins clearly disagree with us, I'm perfectly willing to abide by consensus here, and if there is consensus that NYB and I are out of order, I will abide by that consensus. What we have is, in my perspective, a lack of guidance from the rules, which is to say that the rules are silent on the matter. What you interpret as "the rules don't say there's a limit, so the limit must go back forever", I interpret as "the rules don't say there's a limit, so we have no guidance and are working blind here". When I don't have such clear rules, I fall back on more core principles, including WP:AGF. When I see a borderline or ambiguous case, as long as there is no evidence to the contrary, I lean towards AGF. That's my statement on the matter. --Jayron32 17:32, 5 April 2022 (UTC) Context is always relevant, the notion that a "revert" in the spirit of "enabling a good editing environment" needs to be assessed, in context. Under your limitless revert, an edit could have been made in 2006, undone in 2014, reinstated in 2019, and undone again in 2022, and now we're supposed to block that editor? I'm going to be honest with you, and this is just me, I can't remember anything I was doing 6 months ago; much less any specific edits I may have made to one Wikipedia article. Is this a revert? I don't know. So I need to go with WP:AGF here. --Jayron32 17:52, 5 April 2022 (UTC) This isn't a place to play games with language. This is a place to decide whether or not to block someone for something they did. If the language I used gets in your way of understanding that, simply rewrite everything I already said, but replace any time I made you think I said "this isn't a revert" instead with the language "this revert is not worth counting for 1RR in this case". The end result is exactly the same, and if that doesn't get you hung up on the language here, Kyohyi, it's all the same to me. --Jayron32 18:14, 5 April 2022 (UTC) While I don't think I'd actually actively do anything different than Dennis, Brad, or Jayron here, because it's a little fuzzy, I do understand Nableezy's frustration. I've noticed for a while - with no suggested resolution - that there is a tension between BRD and 1RR. If we assume David's first removal of the link was bold, then he violated BRD when he reverted Nableezy's revert. But there's currently no sanction for doing that. 1RR in fact incentivizes breaking BRD. So no matter how we define David's first edit to the page today - bold or revert - the second edit broke either 1RR or BRD, but Nableezy is trapped and has to accept the edit as the new status quo while discussion goes on. And if the discussion results in no consensus, David's edit somehow becomes the de facto new default. 1RR definitely creates a first-mover advantage, which in most other areas of WP we tend to try to avoid. This is reason #46 I seldom get involved in AE, because so often it relies on gamesmanship, and rewarding the person who plays the game better. --Floquenbeam (talk) 17:42, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Veverve

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Veverve

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

My very best wishes (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 16:30, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Veverve (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search DS alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Eastern_Europe#General_restriction

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 23:40, 29 March 2022, 14:05, 30 March 2022, 04:21, 2 April 2022, 21:31, 3 April 2022, 17:17, 5 April 2022, 02:22, 6 April 2022 - sustained edit-warring on page Russian_fascism_(ideology), immediately after coming from a block for edit-warring on the same page. In last edit summaries user claims consensus to delete this page by making it a redirect. I do not see an obvious consensus anywhere. An AfD about this page was closed as "no consensus" on March 18 [24].
2. [25],[26] (please check their edit summaries) - the user repeatedly removes Category:Russian fascism from a page about Neo-fascist essay What Russia should do with Ukraine. This essay advocates extermination of Ukrainian people in context of the ongoing War crimes in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. And it is described as such on the page: "The article calls for the full destruction of Ukraine as a state and the Ukrainian national identity ref" in the lead. It also say that "According to Euractiv, Sergeitsev [author of the essay] is "one of the ideologists of modern Russian fascism" ref". The irony of this? The category was already there, I inserted it by mistake. But such edits show the bias of Veverve and their readiness to edit war even about categorization of pages as belonging to Category:Russian fascism when they obviously belong to such category.
3. [27] - Veverve objects to using Category:Russian fascism on a number of pages (such as page in the previous diff #2), and instead of discussing why the category would be applicable to specific pages (as I suggested [28]), demands that I must self-revert on all such pages or he will submit an ANI request about me. This is a highly confrontational approach.
4. [29] - misleading edit summary by Veverve. No, Z symbol removed by Veverve is very much relevant to the subject, this is like removing swastika from a page about Nazi. But he removes it again: [30], and again [31]. This is modus operandi of Veverve: just declare something to be unrelated to the subject and remove over the objections by other multiple contributors.
5. [32] - misleading edit summary. Veverve removes not just views by Dzhokhar Dudayev (which are relevant), but views by well known academic historian Timothy D. Snyder
6. (edit summary) - is that an adequate explanation for removal?

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

1. [33] block for edit-warring on page Russian_fascism_(ideology)

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

• DS alert

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

With regard to categories (diff #3), my typical response would be that Black Hundreds, for example, should be included to the category based on their description in book Russian Fascism: Traditions, Tendencies, Movements or in another book, but this is beyond the point. The point is the confrontational approach by Veverve to resolving content disputes: the refusal to discuss the essence of disagreements and demanding to self-revert immediately on all pages or "I will report you to ANI". The report to ANI would result only in wasting time by contributors in this case.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

• User notified

Discussion concerning Veverve

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Veverve

1. What you call edit-warring is either: a) enforcing the consensus at Talk:Russian fascism (ideology)#Scope of the article, and I was not the only one doing it by revertingyour edits as HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith reverted you; or b) disagreeing on the content of the page which does not constitute edit-warring. I told you on the article's talk page that there was a consensus and that another uninvolved user had seen there was a consensus. The consensus was also seen by a second uninvolved user at ANM.

My article-ban was from 17 March 2022 to 24 March 2022. All your examples are from more than 5 days after the end of the ban, so I do not see how you can say I had contend disputes immediately after coming from a block for edit-warring on the same page.

I opened an ANI on 1 April 2022 concerning this page and a dispute with another user, Tsans2. On 2 April the user was topic-banned, and I received no sanction or accusation for edit-warring at this ANI, meaning I was not considered by anyone as edit-warring (i.e. no WP:BOOMERANG as should have happened if I was doing what you are accusing me of). This topic-ban was supported by Deepfriedokra, who had previously imposed a one-week article-ban of this article to both me and Tsans2.

2. and 3. As for the second and third point, you are emphasising the content dispute aspect, while I was protesting against you trying to make controversial changes. As I stated on you talk page, most of your additions did not meet WP:CATDEF. And some (probably most if I remember correctly) of the articles to which you added those tags make no mention of fascism; I gave you two examples at your talk page (Russian world, Third Rome). Another example is adding this category to Category:Antisemitism in the Soviet Union which is highly contestable. I have the right to ask you to follow WP:BRD and WP:QUO when a policy is not respected; I feel in no way can this behaviour be considered a highly confrontational approach.

Veverve (talk) 18:16, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

@Dennis Brown: since there was no consensus at the AfD, as I told My very best wishes, my reasoning was that there was no WP:CONLEVEL, as WP:NOCONSENSUS seems treated differently in the same policy page (I pointed out WP:CCC and WP:BUREAUCRACY in my comment). Veverve (talk) 21:41, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

@Dennis Brown: that I may have misinterpreted one or more policies, I admit. However, what POV are you accusing me of pushing? Veverve (talk) 21:57, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Dennis Brown: I would like to point out that my argument about CCC and CONLEVEL were made 6 April 2022, 1 month after the AfD; and they were not made after you gave an explanation on them.

While I was previously given the argument that the soft deletion was not to be done due to the AfD result, other users have also been given this argument and have also changed the article into a redirect, in good faith, in the name of what they perceived as enforcing a legitimate consensus from the talk page. Besides, I am not the one who turned this article into a redirect in the first place. I am not invoking a WP:SHEEP editing on my part, but the user My very best wishes wants to make those actions as if they were outlandish and especially made by me.

While those elements do not make my actions automatically excusable, I hope they provide a bigger picture of the situation. Veverve (talk) 01:00, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

I note that My very best wishes (MVBW) has changed their complaint to try, even here, to POV-push adding the Z (military symbol) and the Ribbon of Saint George as symbols of fascism in Russia without any source; this is despite having accepted the letter "Z" was not a fascist symbol according to the only sources once given in the article supposedly supporting this claim. MVBW is also trying to blame me for not agreeing on their scope of the article at the time, which by a 2 vs 1 was not following MVBW's opinion; MVBW's view being that the article should be a collection of claims of Russia under Vladimir Putin being fascist or compared to fascists. I have justified myself concerning Danilov's opinion on the article's talk page; the opinion to me is not DUE and the statement it supports is half a FICTREF. Dudayev's opinion is from an interview and therefore is a primary source and given weight arbitrarily. Those new accusations are either once again content dispute material, or an user trying to justify WP:OR. Veverve (talk) 03:37, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

Statement by Dhawangupta

@Dennis Brown: I think you should take WP:ATD into consideration. There is no need of another AfD to overturn a previous AfD. The discussion on talk page happened for weeks and it was concluded that Wikipedia is better off without this article. The clear consensus was also noted by arbitrator+admin Xeno on WP:AN.[34]

Since this report largely depend on that particular point that has been already resolved, I don't consider this report as anything more than WP:FORUMSHOPPING to find another resolution instead of describing on talk page that why this POV cruft is needed or if there is any academic coverage about it. Dhawangupta (talk) 05:53, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

Result concerning Veverve

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• Veverve, why exactly are you (and Czello and HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith) trying to soft delete an article that went to AFD and was closed as "no consensus".[35]. AFD is considered a global consensus, unlike a talk page which is a local consensus, as it attracts input from all over the Wiki. It would seem to be that if you want it to be deleted, you would take it to AFD again. I mean, you didn't even bother to have a well advertised RFC, you just got a few people together on a talk page and decided the AFD was "wrong". There are plenty of issues with the article (as the AFD pointed out), but you can't overturn global consensus with local consensus. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 19:20, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

I'm seeing textbook tendentious editing from Veverve here. You can't just quote BRD or only give it lip service, then point your finger at the other guy. I will look around more, but seriously, this may warrant a topic ban. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 19:40, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

No consensus defaults to KEEP under all circumstances at AFD, and always has, as that is the default state of an article. The only real difference between a no consensus and keep decision is that it is considered acceptable to bring a no consensus article back to AFD after a period of time, 3 to 6 months. For all intent and purposes, the status quo was "keep", and the AFD showed there was NO consensus to delete it. Been that way since I started in 2006. And please stay in your own section. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 21:47, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Let me add, your quoting CCC (consensus can change) two weeks after the AFD is making the case that you need to be topic banned. You seem blinded by your POV here and reaching for any straw to grab onto. You're quoting policy you don't understand, and instead of learning policy, you are trying to find some policy that fits your preconceived ideas. I don't think you need to be editing in EE areas, your POV is overriding good judgement. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 21:51, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

• Dennis Brown's observations reflect my own. This is straying into WP:CIR territory. El_C 11:12, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

Goliath74

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Goliath74

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

FDW777 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 16:44, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Goliath74 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search DS alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Eastern Europe

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 16:35, 08 April 2022 Restores content with unreliable reference without explanation
2. 16:35, 08 April 2022 Again restores content with unreliable reference without explanation, despite my very clear edit summary of "rv. See previous edit summary. The discussion has been had regarding that website. It isn't reliable. Per WP:BURDEN, anyone restoring the information needs to cite a proper reference, not an unreliable blog

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

n/a

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Notified

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Given the ongoing propaganda war surrounding the actual war, the last thing relevant articles needs is editors who persist in restoring information by a blog deemend unreliable at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 320#defence-blog.com. FDW777 (talk) 16:44, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Notified

Discussion concerning Goliath74

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Result concerning Goliath74

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• Extended confirmed protected for the duration. FDW777, while Goliath74's edits to the page might be subpar, it's only 2 reverts and this article isn't subject to WP:1RR right now. El_C 11:22, 9 April 2022 (UTC)