- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview
Robert's Rules of Order is a parliamentary authority which has a history going back to Gen. Henry Robert in 1876. As such the copyright has long since lapsed and there are numerous current versions. One version claims without foundation to be the official version of this public domain work, which has no official version, and has made the entire article about this one version, referring to the other works only to briefly denigrate them, while frequently parroting in the article their unsubstantiated claim to official status. This seems quite contrary to the Wikipedia ethic of neutrality and balance.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
This is my first action to appeal the matter after some reverted edits.
How do you think we can help?
There is a commercial interest involved here and based on my experience in discussing the matter on the Talk page it doesn't seem that RONRuser is interested in compromise. I think ultimately it will need to be adjudicated.
Summary of dispute by Klundarr
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by Ronruser
Robert's Rules of Order is a book on parliamentary procedure. Henry Robert wrote the original book and then later revised it several times. After his death, his family took over his work and published further revisions. The latest edition of this series of revisions is stated as the official edition. Independent experts on parliamentary procedure have stated that this edition is the official version of Robert's Rules. Ronruser (talk) 00:35, 17 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Talk:Robert%27s Rules_of_Order discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Volunteer's note: There's been plenty of talk page discussion, but it's the filing editor's obligation to notify the other parties on their user talk pages. A note just on the article talk page will not suffice. At the time of filing, the filing editor was IP-only (2604:2000:1481:C1D1:1C66:3ABF:A680:B0AE at the time of filing), but has now registered the account noted above. This request will be closed if no notices are given within 48 hours after this note; see the top of the page here for a template which can be used for that purpose. I am not either "taking" or opening this filing for discussion, other than filling in the sections above, at this time. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 21:01, 16 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
>> Thanks for your assistance. I have placed notices on the user talk pages as requested. Sakuranohi (talk) 21:13, 16 March 2018 (UTC)Sakuranohi[reply]
- Volunteer note - The filing party wrote: "There is a commercial interest involved here and based on my experience in discussing the matter on the Talk page it doesn't seem that RONRuser is interested in compromise. I think ultimately it will need to be adjudicated." This noticeboard does not adjudicate disputes, but assists in resolving them by moderated discussion. If the filing party wants compromise, this is a right place. If the filing party wants a conflict of interest adjudicated, they should make a request at the conflict of interest noticeboard. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:33, 17 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
>> I've made proposals. I haven't heard any indication of compromise from the other editor. If there is no movement I will move to the COIN noticeboard. I'll give it a couple of days. Sakuranohi (talk) 16:05, 17 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I have provided independent secondary sources (from subject matter experts) which clearly and directly support the statement that there is an official version of Robert's Rules among the many versions. I have repeatedly requested for sources which support the statement that there is no official version. So far, two sources have been provided, but neither source clearly states that there is no official version. I would like to see references which directly support the other side of the argument. I can provide more references which support the official status.
As for the suggestion of conflict of interest, I am a layman with no involvement with the Robert's Rules Association. My username was chosen based on that I have read the RONR book and have found it to be a useful source of information on parliamentary procedure. Ronruser (talk) 00:14, 18 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
>> I suggest you find your additional sources. The multitude of alternate publications speaks volumes, and your citations are few. -
Sakuranohi2604:2000:1481:C1D1:F19A:4807:D0E7:8963 (talk) 02:59, 19 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
And once again, I request providing sources which support your argument. No such sources have been provided. Ronruser (talk) 11:41, 19 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
First statement by volunteer
Okay. I will try to work with the editors. Please read my standard rules. Please do not engage in back-and-forth discussion with each other; that already has been tried, and merely results in more back-and-forth. Be civil and concise. Now: It appears that one user says that "Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised", which is maintained by an organization, is considered by various authorities to be official or authoritative. I would like each editor to state, in one paragraph, what the issue is. Wikipedia relies on what reliable sources have written. Will each editor please state, concisely, what they think the issue is? Robert McClenon (talk) 16:58, 19 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
First statements by editors
Robert’s Rules of Order is a set of parliamentary rules first published by Henry Robert in 1876. There were two revisions in his lifetime. All three of these publications are out of copyright and in the public domain. As such, there have been numerous revised versions, including by his grandson and his associates who claim to publish the “official” version, “Robert’s Rules of Order Newly Revised, 11th Edition” (RONR). Among the other versions of Robert’s Rules of Order, in addition to the publications by General Robert which are still widely sold, there are “Robert's Rules of Order - Masonic Edition”, “The New Robert’s Rules of Order”, “Robert’s Rules in Plain English”, “Webster's New World Robert's Rules of Order Simplified and Applied”, and “Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised in Brief” (from the same publishers as “Roberts Rules of Order Newly Revised”). Robert’s Rules of Order properly applies to all of these books, most particularly to the original editions from Gen. Robert (who btw retired as Chief of the Army Corps of Engineers). While RONR may be the most prominent and for many people the most authoritative modern update, since the original text is public domain, there is no such thing as an “official” version. The article about Robert’s Rules of Order tries to suggest that RONR is the only legitimate version, and denigrates and doesn’t even individually mention the other publications, going so far as to state right at the top of the article that RONR is synonymous with Robert’s Rules of Order. The article heavily uses the word “official” to try to buttress the claim, and makes reference to the “official” website etc. Because RONR is a respected publication, there are a couple of neutral parties (among the large number who cite the publication) who have signed on to the claim of “official” status pushed by the publishers. The only legitimate such claim is that it is the official version of RONR, not Robert's Rules. This theme is propagated in many other wikipedia articles with contributions from Ronruser, which cite Robert’s Rules of Order Newly Revised but only link the Robert’s Rules of Order part of the name, showing the consciousness of the editor that the two are not, in fact, synonymous. Sakuranohi (talk) 00:10, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Reliable sources, who are also subject matter experts, have stated that there is an official version of Robert's Rules. Ronruser (talk) 00:38, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Second statement by moderator
I asked the editors to be concise. One was. Just a comment.
I will point out that there is a legal reason why it may be important to know what is the official version of Robert's Rules of Order. Disputes between two factions in a (usually non-profit) corporation, both claiming control of the organization's property, are not uncommon, and sometimes have to be decided by courts. If, as is usually the case, the organization's bylaws state that Robert's Rules of Order is the parliamentary authority, that determines whether action that was taken, such as to sell the property, or to fire the officers and appoint new officers, was legally valid. So it is important to have an official version of Robert's Rules of Order.
Now, will each editor please explain how their view on this content dispute relates to the occasional need to know what is the official version of Robert's Rules of Order?: Robert McClenon (talk) 03:30, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Second statements by editors
Since there is an official version of the book, the Wikipedia article should state so. Having some of the content of the article based on the official version seems to be reasonable. Ronruser (talk) 04:07, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
>> The need for a formally designated version of Robert's Rules is addressed by the Robert's Rules Association, editors of RONR, here: http://www.robertsrules.com/authority.html. Calling for "Robert's Rules" is insufficient specificity when there are so many versions, which is why an authority such as RONR must be specifically adopted. The Wikipedia article doesn't address the need for a specific authority to be officially adopted, confusing Robert's Rules with RONR, a mistake the RRA website doesn't make. Sakuranohi (talk) 17:55, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Third statement by moderator
It looks as though the above statement about the need to specify a particular version of the parliamentary authority almost resolves the question. Do we agree then that the Wikipedia article should acknowledge that there are multiple books that are called Robert's Rules, just like there are multiple dictionaries that are called Webster's, and that it is important to specify a particular version (just like specifying a particular dictionary)? Can we focus on how to word that clarification of the need for precision? Robert McClenon (talk) 18:40, 21 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Third statements by editors
I am comfortable with this statement: "The current edition of Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised is considered to be the authoritative work on Robert's Rules according to professional parliamentarians, the American Institute of Parliamentarians, the National Association of Parliamentarians, and the Robert's Rules Association." I think the article should retain the essence of this statement. Ronruser (talk) 02:49, 22 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
>> I don't think the Robert's Rules Association should be a source of authority for its own book. But I think Ronruser's proposed text can be worked with, and appreciate the willingness to compromise. I expect we still disagree on how to characterize other works and how to place RONR in context with them, but one step at a time. With verifiable citations, I would be comfortable with "The current edition of Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised is considered to be the most authoritative work on Robert's Rules, according to the American Institute of Parliamentarians and the National Association of Parliamentarians." (I haven't seen the appropriate citation from the AIP, and would want to review the citation from NAP but I think it's sufficient to support the NAP claim). If supported by strong enough citations from both organizations I could be persuaded to drop the word "most". -- Sakuranohi 2604:2000:1481:C1D1:A4FE:7FD2:9CBE:9B0C (talk) 03:59, 22 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
>> I think this statement is supportable based on the provided reference: "The current edition of Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised is the most widely used reference for Robert's Rules." http://www.parliamentarians.org/about/faq/ Sakuranohi (talk) 13:34, 23 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Fourth statement by moderator
Are the editors willing to agree to either the Ronruser wording or the Sakuranohi wording? Is there an even more middle wording that can be used?
Fourth statements by editors
To find better wording, I want to look at what the sources have said:
1. http://www.jimslaughter.com/roberts-rules-of-order.cfm
As noted on the website, the article is excerpted from the following book:
2. https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Idiots-Parliamentary-Procedure-Fast-Track/dp/161564220X/ref=sr_1_11?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1521870365&sr=1-11&keywords=parliamentary+procedure
The excerpt containing a statement on the book could be found on page 3.
3. http://www.dummies.com/careers/business-skills/what-are-roberts-rules-of-order/
The author of this article also wrote the "For Dummies" book:
4. https://www.amazon.com/Roberts-Rules-Dummies-Alan-Jennings/dp/1119241715/ref=pd_sbs_14_3?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=1119241715&pd_rd_r=NFR0A09FS3NYK3JDEYCH&pd_rd_w=3BFd7&pd_rd_wg=WToWN&psc=1&refRID=NFR0A09FS3NYK3JDEYCH
On page 2, the author makes a strong statement about the book.
5. https://www.nancysylvester.com/articles-scripts and the article, "The New Version of Robert's and Why You Should Care", which is a link to this: https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/671d4f_2d064ad497c94168abca4131f8803ab3.pdf
In addition, there are professional parliamentarians who have made RONR synonymous with Robert's Rules of Order: see page 6 of this issue (https://issuu.com/parliamentarians/docs/nap_np_76-3-d) of the magazine from the National Association of Parliamentarians. Looking through the available issues, Robert's Rules is referred to exclusive as RONR. Also, the American Institute of Parliamentarians mentions "Roberts" and then lists "Roberts Rules of Order Newly Revised": https://aipparl.org/member-benefits/ .
I think what I wrote earlier is a fair statement given these sources. Ronruser (talk) 08:22, 24 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- I wanted to add the credentials of the authors used: http://www.jimslaughter.com/credentials.cfm, http://www.alanjennings.com/?page_id=68, https://www.nancysylvester.com/about Ronruser (talk) 15:18, 25 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
>> #1 and #2 are from the same author. I think we can consider them to be one source. Likewise with #3 and #4. The authors are knowledgeable but not authoritative. I will list some objections.
Starting with #5, the author states that "If the bylaws of an organization state that the organization’s parliamentary authority is “the current edition of” Robert’s, then the 11th edition is now that organization’s parliamentary authority." This is really bad information. As the previously discussed RobertsRules.com page makes clear, the authority should be indicated as the "current edition of RONR" since there are multiple versions of Robert's Rules. Claiming clarity where it doesn't exist reflects badly on the author and is potentially harmful to anyone relying on the claim.
The author of Dummies states "The Robert’s Rules Association, the National Association of Parliamentarians, and the American Institute of Parliamentarians recognize Robert‘s Rules of Order Newly Revised as the authoritative work on parliamentary procedure whenever Robert’s Rules is designated as the parliamentary authority." This statement at least doesn't go so far as to make the wrong claim that Sylvester makes, but it's bad form to quote the RRA as an authority on their own book, and the other claims are not supported. Again, if you provide actual support from the NAP and AIP for this claim, I won't object to using it, but please provide a direct source.
Slaughter, your first author, claims official status for RONR, while the RRA properly states that RONR has to be specifically cited as an organization's authority (implicitly acknowledging that the claimed "official status" lacks practical meaning).
If you can produce a strong statement from the NAP and/or the AIP it would be very helpful. In my view, two of these authors make claims that are unsupportable, while the third (Jennings) is unsupported. Sakuranohi (talk) 04:56, 25 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
>> I want to find language that properly recognizes the important status of RONR. The language I proposed was adapted from NAP. Sakuranohi (talk) 05:10, 25 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Fifth statement by moderator
The above statement is lengthy. Please be concise. Will each editor please provide one or more statements that they consider satisfactory, without any explanatory language? Robert McClenon (talk) 01:31, 26 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Fifth statements by editors
Highly qualified experts in parliamentary procedure regard the current edition of Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised to be the authoritative work on Robert's Rules. Ronruser (talk) 02:21, 26 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
>> "The current edition of Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised is the most widely used reference for Robert's Rules." Sakuranohi (talk) 17:14, 27 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
>> "The current edition of Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised is the most widely used Robert's Rules authority." Sakuranohi (talk) 20:52, 27 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Sixth statement by moderator
It was already noted above that sometimes it is important to know which version is considered authoritative. Will either editor agree to any of the other wordings? If not, the answer is a Request for Comments. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:40, 28 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Sixth statements by editors
I am willing to combine our statements:
The current edition of Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised is regarded by experts to be the authoritative work on Robert's Rules and the most widely used reference on parliamentary procedure. Ronruser (talk) 10:35, 28 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
>> The authoritative version is the one which is adopted by the assembly, according to General Robert himself, according to RONR, and according to the RRA. RONR is a well-regarded work, but it is not the only respected update to Gen Robert's work. It is one version of Robert's Rules among many: Robert's Rules of Order, the Modern Edition, for example. We should find language that provides due respect to the other works. It seems that Request for Comments is the appropriate next step.Sakuranohi (talk) 05:49, 29 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
>>How about this: The original works by Henry Robert are now in the public domain. There are many updated versions of Robert's Rules, most having been composed to provide a briefer and more accessible manual of rules. The current edition of RONR, a work of over 700 pages published by Robert's grandson and associates, is widely considered to be the most authoritative version.Sakuranohi (talk) 07:32, 29 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Seventh statement by moderator
Since it appears that the editors won't agree on a single compromise wording, we will use a Request for Comments. Each editor will provide their own wording, and then we will go from there. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:11, 30 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Seventh statements by editors
The current edition of Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised is regarded by experts to be the authoritative work on Robert's Rules. Ronruser (talk) 08:35, 30 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
>> The original works by Henry Robert are now in the public domain, and remain in use. There are a number of updated versions of Robert's Rules, including Robert's Rules of Order Modern Edition and Robert's Rules of Order in Plain English, which have been composed to provide a more accessible manual of meeting rules. The current edition of Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised, a reference work of over 700 pages, is widely considered to be the most authoritative version, but draws criticism for being difficult to use. All sources agree that adoption of a specific chosen authority for meeting rules should be formalized by the organization using them. Sakuranohi (talk) 16:07, 30 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
– General close. See comments for reasoning.
Dispute resolved successfully. See comments for reasoning.
Done
Note to participants: An appropriate amount of discussion has taken place on the talk page, and all parties to the case have been notified by filer.