Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)

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The policy section of the village pump is used to discuss proposed policies and guidelines and changes to existing policies and guidelines.

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RfC: Abolish the current version of NSPORTS

Original question:

Abolish the current version of NSPORTS. This page, far from being rules of thumb which some editors choose to keep in mind when deciding whether or not to keep an article, does not help the decision process, but actively hampers it. Examples are countless of one group of editors (whether it be football, olympics, or plenty of others) arguing that an article should be kept because (correctly or not) its subject "passes N[some random sport]" or that "sportsperson from long time ago, there WP:MUSTBESOURCES"; and others correctly arguing that the existing coverage is not sufficient to write an encyclopedia article (as opposed to a database entry). This leads to needless conflict, pointless AfDs and DRVs, and above all bureaucratic waste of time. Abolishing this guideline and falling back directly to GNG would also help in reducing issues of WP:BIAS and the disproportionate amount of (usually white, male, European) sports figures that are included, as well as make policy more understandable to newer and more experienced editors alike by avoiding issues of WP:CREEP. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 16:13, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, everyone. I hope this quick split didn't cause any edit conflicts for anyone. This discussion is approximately the length of Ray Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451. Your comments are still wanted (honest!), but novel-length RFCs need to be split off of this page, especially when they've only been open for a week and are still growing by the hour. The RFC bot will update links soon. Please go to Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Sports notability to continue the discussion. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:26, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Support I think it is high time we applied GNG to sports people. I also think we need to avoid mass redirecting in cases where we determine people are not notable. To my mind a subject specific guideline should be used to guide us in cases where GNG would lead to over inclusion, not to include articles that do not pass GNG. For example, without the oolitician notbility guideline we might on GNG grounds keep any article on any politician who ran for an office at a level that would have multiple papers writing substantial articles. We have instead decided that it is not reasonable for us to include every past failed candidate for national legislatures. In the sports criteria too often the bars have been set insanely low. We finally tightened the Olympic guideline to medalist. However this is still sweeping a lot of people who barely have any coverage. Yet, we still have a whole slew of other guidelines, such as the one on Equestrians, that say all Olympic competitors are default notable. For cricket we allow articles on anyone who played in a " First class match" even though we know many such people we know nothing on outside of the match reports. For some sports we will include anyone who played one game in a fully professional league. Beyond the low inclusion bar these guidelines lead to people creating and leaving for years articles that say virtually nothing about the subject. It means the project is drowning in articles not backed by reliable sources. We need to change things. Scrapping the guidelines entirely would be a good start.John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:07, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose Any measure such as this opens up all manner of interpretation, this is an attack on multiple wikipedia projects. As far as I am concerned this is just RandomCanadian being extreme to WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Completely pointless and wasting everyone's time. Govvy (talk) 10:14, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Proposal expanded (NSPORTS)

For those with this page but not the Sports notability subpage on their watchlist, two new sub-proposals have been added since it was split off. One of these has been SNOW-closed, but the other would welcome your input. BilledMammal (talk) 05:16, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Three additional proposals have been added:

Subproposal 9

Rewrite the lead of WP:NSPORTS to avoid any wikilawyering. Propose changing:

This guideline is used to help evaluate whether or not a sports person or sports league/organization (amateur or professional) is likely to meet the general notability guideline, and thus merit an article in Wikipedia. The article should provide reliable sources showing that the subject meets the general notability guideline or the sport specific criteria set forth below. [paragraph break] If the article does meet the criteria set forth below, then it is likely that sufficient sources exist to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article. Failing to meet the criteria in this guideline means that notability will need to be established in other ways (for example, the general notability guideline, or other, topic-specific, notability guidelines).

to

This guideline is used to help evaluate whether or not a sports person or sports league/organization (amateur or professional) is likely to meet the general notability guideline, and thus merit an article in Wikipedia. If the article does meet the criteria set forth below, then it is likely that sufficient sources exist to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article. Failing to meet the criteria in this guideline means that notability will need to be established in other ways (for example, the general notability guideline, or other, topic-specific, notability guidelines).

i.e. cut the confusing sentence in the middle which is at odds with the rest of the guideline and which leaves itself open to lots of wiki-lawyering...

Subproposal 10

Require each project that has inclusion criteria based on participation in a league (e.g., football, cricket, American football, baseball basketball, hockey, Australian rules football, etc.) within the next 30 days to justify the inclusion of each league. Such justification must include actual "random" (truly random) sampling showing that 90%-plus of the players in each league receive sufficient SIGCOV to pass GNG. At the end of 30 days, any league as to which the data has not been provided must be stricken from NSPORTS.

Subproposal 11

Rewrite the introductory paragraph to put this guideline on a similar footing to other SNGs, removing the dependence on the GNG, and making it clear that standalone articles should not be created for articles that can only be sourced to statistics databases.

This guideline is used to help evaluate whether or not a sports person or sports league/organization (amateur or professional) is likely to merit an article in Wikipedia. The article should provide reliable sources showing that the subject meets either the general notability guideline or the sport specific criteria set forth below. Standalone articles should only be created where sufficient sources can be identified to create an article that goes beyond the contents of statistics databases and websites; Where the only sources available simply provide only basic personal details and details of participation, the subject should be covered in a list article or mentioned in a parent article rather than having a standalone article.

Please note that the failure to meet these criteria does not mean an article must be deleted; conversely, meeting of any of these criteria does not mean that an article must be kept. These are merely rules of thumb which some editors choose to keep in mind when deciding whether or not to keep an article that is on articles for deletion, along with relevant policies and guidelines such as Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:Reliable sources.

Subproposal 12

Should participation in the Olympics be removed as an indicator of presumed notability for each of the following? This is a follow up to the 2021 RFC that removed the general presumption of notability for Olympic athletes, and can be considered a counterpart to subproposal three. This discussion will have no impact on Olympic athletes who medalled, as they are presumed notable under NOLYMPIC.

Subproposal 13

No more fucking subproposals. Let this thing run its course.

I would Support this if I knew where to vote in this complicated mess. Xxanthippe (talk) 21:30, 16 February 2022 (UTC).

More general discussion

• It is clear the system is broken. See here *Comment Something is clearly wrong when people ignore a total lack of GNG, an administator weighs the actual sourcing and arguments, and then gets attacked for it as is happening here Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2022 February 16.John Pack Lambert (talk) 21:01, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

  Can you provide excerpts of the alleged personal attack?—Bagumba (talk) 00:47, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

  I don't see anyone claiming personal attacks. It is possible to attack an admin without it being a personal attack. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:10, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

  I see, embellished canvassing from involved AfD participant.—Bagumba (talk) 00:45, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

• This was following a discussion where there was no showing of any additional coverage. People do not even try to come up with significant coverage. This is a very frustrating situation. It is not useful to have Wikipedia be full of perma substub articles that say nothing of substance.John Pack Lambert (talk) 21:01, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

  Perhaps other people find Wikipedia useful for different reasons to you and/or have different visions on what the project should cover? NemesisAT (talk) 14:13, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

  Or other people believe WP:NOT is a policy that shouldn't be ignored... JoelleJay (talk) 20:28, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

• The current system is totally broken. Just see here John Newman (ice hockey) where the fact that an RfC has established that sports guidelines cannot trump GNG and that we must have signficant sources and not just sports databases is totally ignored.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:58, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Ban draftifying articles more than 30 days old

Pretty much the title. The community has discussed this before, but draftification is not meant to be a backdoor to deletion. We've had discussions on this before where we've made it clear as a community old articles shouldn't be draftified without discussion.[1] However, the spirit of this consensus has been completely ignored in practice. Recently, I undid the draftification of Dancing satyr, an article created in 2004 that was "draftified" by a patroller and received practically no work on it. This is inappropriate. Here two created in 2005 including one that went through the original AfC process in 2005: [2] [3] Here's some more made in 2006: [4] [5] [6] I could link dozens of extremely old articles being draftified with practically no discussion whatsoever, simply by searching Special:NewPagesFeed, switching to the Draft namespace, and sorting by "oldest" unsubmitted.
For the reason that we have really old articles being draftified by many different reviewers, I think we need to make our expectations clearer about what "new articles" means in the context of draftification. I like to propose that anything over a month old should be ineligible for draftification without consensus at AfD. Reviewers do not appear to be interpreting the intent correctly and we need a firm rule on the matter. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 22:42, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

• Support as proposer. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 22:42, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose no, just because an very poor article is 31 days old, if someone might want to work on it to get it up the minimum standards I can't see any reason to refuse letting an AFD for example close as "Draftify". — xaosflux ^Talk 23:07, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

  @Xaosflux: This proposal doesn't ban that. I'll bold it in the statement so it's clearer, but the actual proposal is "anything over a month old should be ineligible for draftification without consensus at AfD" All I want to ban is draftification of old articles WITHOUT community consensus. If someone wants to AfD an article and it closes with draftify that's totally OK. But right now patrollers are draftifying decade old articles that have 0 chance of being worked on. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 23:46, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

  @Chess: thanks, from the title, and the "pretty much the title" it didn't seem like as much as a carve out as a new brightline. I've struck my oppose, and don't have a strong opinion on it otherwise. I wouldn't support a "ban" on bringing an article back to draft if the authors agreed on it though, nor require them to AFD themselves. — xaosflux ^Talk 23:50, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

• Support, if the creator of an article that they are the only substantial contributor to is not prevented from draftifying their article under this. We have several procedures by which an article can be deleted; silently moving them to draft space is not one of them. BilledMammal (talk) 00:03, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Per Schazjmd, I would prefer an exception for unreviewed new articles, or a 60 or 90 day period, but if there is not a consensus for that then I would also support the proposed 30 days. BilledMammal (talk) 00:25, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose as written, I would support a longer period, such as ban moving articles older than 90 days to draft without an AfD decision to do so. I think 1 month is too short; not all new articles are reviewed in the first 30 days. Schazjmd (talk) 00:12, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
• Support. Will streamline Wikipedia processes and reduce backlogs. Xxanthippe (talk) 00:13, 9 February 2022 (UTC).
• Oppose as written, I would support a longer time. Wikipedia:ATD-I says this process should be used for "newly created" articles. I have seen other discussions where editors consider six months or less to be "newly created". I would agree with that or at least three months. 30 days is too short. MB 00:28, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose as written there is generally a backlog of several months at NPP and it can easily take three months for a new article to be reviewed, though a shorter period is normal. 90 days would be more workable for this proposal than 30. On a separate point re the very old articles that have been draftified - if a very poor article was created in 2005 it might have been redirected in 2009. Along comes someone in 2022, undoes the redirect and makes no improvement. The article then goes into the NPP queue and may be e.g. completely unsourced. I agree that draftification in this kind of case should follow an AfD decision. Mccapra (talk) 00:41, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose as written raise to 90 days, and I'll gladly support this. This is easily my biggest pet-peeve on Wikipedia, and having to go through User:SDZeroBot/Draftify Watch every week and slap over-zealous reviewers is getting really annoying. Curbon7 (talk) 01:04, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
• Support as modified so that articles may be draftified on initial review or otherwise in the first 60 days. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:02, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
• Support as modified I'm fine with 60 days or any longer period under 6 months. Certain editors have been massively misusing draftification as a method to force articles onto AfC. If you think an article isn't notable, then PROD it or nominate it for deletion. If it is notable, but is lacking references or anything else, we have tags and templates for that. Draftification is an incredibly lazy action to take, trying to make the article somebody else's problem. Silverseren^C 04:10, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose as written - I've supported the longer timeline below Nosebagbear (talk) 09:54, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
• Support I have also been concerned about draft being used as a means to delete the article without the scrutiny of AfD. NemesisAT (talk) 10:01, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

See Chinese Wikipedia CSD O7:

O7: Abandoned Draft.

Any drafts that is being idle for 6 months

• The "Draft" means:
  1. All pages in the Draft namespace; or
  2. Userpages with the {{AFC submission}} template.
• When determining the last edit time of the draft, maintenance and bot edits should be ignored.

  Wiki Emoji | Emojiwiki _Talk~~ 11:44, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

And how is that different from English Wikipedia's CSD G13? --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 15:00, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose - as written. When articles are reviewed, often they are tagged, and left unreviewed as a means to encourage the article's creator, or other editors, to improve the article so that the articles passes either WP:GNG or WP:VERIFY, or both. In those instances, giving the article's creator only a month to improve is a handicap to that editor. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 19:29, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose. The NPP queue is routinely 3-4 months long. Only allowing draftification in the first 30 days makes it so that over half of the NPP queue is ineligible for draftification, eliminating an important tool for dealing with articles with borderline notability or poor sourcing. –Novem Linguae (talk) 20:56, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
• Support per my post on the post-90-day ban below. Ajpolino (talk) 21:40, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose my opposition in the 'post-90-day ban below' applies equally here, but perhaps with more force! Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 09:20, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose scope_creep^Talk 00:08, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
• Support I often have had concerns with draftifying articles as I have on a number of occasions seen draftifying used as a way to get an article deleted when a QD or Prod would have failed. They move the article and then 6 months later because no one noticed the move the article gets nuked as an abandoned draft. -DJSasso (talk) 14:39, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
• Support. Draftifying articles that are "not up to scratch" is a terrible practice. There is no guarantee that anyone is ever going to work on them in draft and the usual result is a G13 deletion. If a CSD or prod cannot be justified, then draftifying isn't either. If deletion is justified, then draftifying won't change that. SpinningSpark 16:22, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Proposal to ban draftifying articles more than 90 days old without consensus

Since most of the people opposing have supported a longer period, I'd like to propose that anything over 90 days old should be ineligible for draftification without consensus at AfD. I'm putting this in a separate section so we can get more clarity on what the consensus is. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 04:53, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

• Support as proposer. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 04:53, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

  @BilledMammal, Schazjmd, Xxanthippe, MB, Mccapra, Curbon7, Robert McClenon, and Silver seren: Mass pinging to this new proposal so we can coalesce on a firm number. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 04:55, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

• Support as before. Xxanthippe (talk) 04:55, 9 February 2022 (UTC).
• Support as before. BilledMammal (talk) 04:55, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
• Support as before. Silverseren^C 05:03, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
• Support with everything I said above the same. Curbon7 (talk) 05:22, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
• Weak Support because I would prefer that the criterion be whether the article has been reviewed. I agree that some reviewers are misusing draftification because writing an AFD nomination is hard work. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:48, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
• Support Mccapra (talk) 08:25, 9 February 2022 (UTC) changing my mind after reading other comments
• Support this time restriction; beyond that I would specify that articles which have been marked as reviewed or which have passed through AfC (other than in an established misuse of these processes) should not be draftified. AllyD (talk)
• Support the longer timeline - backdoor deletion is a concern, but NPP do have a valid usecase and so should match their timeline Nosebagbear (talk) 09:53, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
• Support as before. NemesisAT (talk) 10:01, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
• Support Older pages should not be unilaterally draftified as there is usually no one to notice it – it just results in a deletion after 6 months. – SD0001 (talk) 14:15, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
• Support as before. Schazjmd (talk) 15:04, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
• Maybe if expanded to ...without consensus at AfD or by the page author(s). I'm fairly neutral if this includes the page authors; if the author(s) agree, for example by talk page discussion or if there is a single author, can't see why they would need to AFD themselves. Oppose creating a policy that would require them to AFD themselves. — xaosflux ^Talk 15:12, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

  I'd imagine in effect an admin could justify this by saying WP:G7 is enough for a deletion and move to draftspace. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 20:54, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

• Support. I'd also support a shorter period, requiring consensus for reviewed articles of any age and those moved out of draft (by anybody for any reason). I'd also support Xaosflux's suggestion regarding page author(s) - if someone could G7 the page then they should be able to support moving it to draft. Thryduulf (talk) 16:07, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
• Support – after 90 days, draftification very frequently does serve as a back door to deletion, which of course isn't its purpose, simply because the article's creator has moved on. There are very few articles at the back of the NPP queue that can't be adequately dealt with via AfD, PROD, and/or tagging. I certainly support an exception for self-draftifications (which would presumably be covered by IAR anyway), and I could probably support a shorter period (e.g. 60 days) as well. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 19:56, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
• Support The proposal looks sensible and straightforward. Others in favour seem to have made reasonable points to explain why. I would also support something with a shorter period (say 30 days) if there was sufficient consensus for it. @Chess: I've not been checking VPP processes for a while, but should this have an RfC made as well? Possibly a CENT notice, though I'm usually unsure when the latter are used exactly, honestly. To make sure there's enough people throughout Wikipedia who had a chance to look over it? This seems to have widespread support, but dotting all Ts and crossing all Is seems sensible to make sure it's implemented (well). Soni (talk) 00:37, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
  • I've been thinking the same thing; I don't believe CENT is needed, but placing an RFC tag on this would be appropriate - although I don't believe it will need to run for the full 30 days. BilledMammal (talk) 00:49, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
    • I decided to be bold and start the RFC since I'm fairly sure it'll be necessary. Still unsure if CENT is really not needed, but that can wait for more opinions. Hopefully I did not mess anything up technically when making it. Courtesy pings @Chess: and @BilledMammal:. Soni (talk) 11:33, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
• Support. If the article's been around that long, time to deal with it. CSD, or else PROD, or else AfD, or else fix it, or else leave it. No place in that list for stealth deletions. (Summoned by bot.) Herostratus (talk) 16:11, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
• Support iff "90 days" means 90 days after being marked patrolled, and not 90 days after creation, and excludes cases where the creator is moving it to draft and the article would otherwise be eligible for G7. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 17:57, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

  So more or less oppose, since I believe most people take this as "90 days after creation" and the unreviewed backlog stretches back over a decade. Though an exception for G7'able articles is uncontroversial in my opinion. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 00:34, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

• Support per above; 30 days is too short but 90 days is a good cutoff. This probably should be on CENT -- but it need not stay there for a month if this is a SNOW pass. I'd add to CENT it myself except I don't want responsibility for removing it if need be. The folks at WT:CSD may also want a ping. User:力 (powera, π, ν) 00:56, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
• Support 60 days. TheBirdsShedTears (talk) 02:40, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose Supporting the 90 days limit, but consensus may be built at other venues than AfD, or that the articles in question were created and mainly edited by known socks, or hidden UPEs, or drafts accepted by AfC reviewers who were found to be socks or UPEs. – robertsky (talk) 04:10, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

  Why would any of those cases result in draftifying the article in question? Either they would be deleted or taken to AfD in such cases or another editor would take responsibility for the article. None of which has to do with draftification. Silverseren^C 04:42, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

  There was a batch draftified in 2017 as consensus for dealing with a residue of potentially-salvageable articles created by the Content Translation tool: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/CXT/Draftification list July 2017. The emphasis in the present proposal should be on consensus as a potential exception condition rather than on a specific venue. AllyD (talk) 09:43, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

  I was involved in that and can attest that we lost multiple editors over the CTX initiative, which swept up a lot of very good articles for no reason other than that they were originally in another language. And we wonder why our retention sucks. I am still angry about that Elinruby (talk) 11:03, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

• changed to oppose after reading over at WT:NPR Happy Editing--IAmChaos 22:36, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose, but I'd support a ban from 180 days or Seraphimblade's 90 days after being marked patrolled. Too many AfDs are dedraftified articles in this gap. — Charles Stewart (talk) 15:05, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
• While it looks, unfortunately, like this proposal is likely to achieve a favorable outcome, I am moved to oppose it, as written. If the proposal was about draftifying a page as a means of circumventing a deletion process, as is often done with very new articles/pages, I would be in full support. But I don't think an arbitrary time table should be used to effectively disallow admin discretion by requiring consensus for draftification at XFD before it could happen. And I'm concerned that it's a step towards requiring the same type of consensus before userfication too, since userfication and draftification are semi-synonyms in spirit and effect. Let XFD discuss and determine deletion aspects of an article/page, as it does and is set up to do. And continue delegating draftification/userfication to an admin's discretion (post-deletion) as it is and has been effectively done up to now.--John Cline (talk) 23:23, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

  @John Cline: The ability to draftify isn't given to admins, but to all new page reviewers and hypothetically anyone that can move pages. The reason why I made this proposal is that draftification to circumvent deletion is already banned, and draftification is already supposed to be used for new pages and not for old pages. But many people are still moving decade old pages to draftspace, so giving people "discretion" isn't working. A hard limit is required at this point. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 22:05, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

  I understand Chess, and would likely support an effort that was limited to draftification by moving the page. The problem, for me, is that draftification (in general) also affects an admin's discretion to draftify a page (post-deletion) and that is why I opposed the proposal "as written". Best regards.--John Cline (talk) 23:39, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

• Support Cbl62 (talk) 21:43, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
• Support limiting unilateral and contested actions to hide existing articles in Draft: space, subject to the usual reasonable limits (e.g., self-draftification by sole authors still permitted, IAR is still policy, redirects aren't articles, the occasional inevitable mistake should be handled by reverting the move, etc.). WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:25, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose 90 days is far too short. It doesn't take cognizance of the fact of the length of the NPP queue which is more than 6 months old, which is common. All it will do it populate Wikipedia with articles that are badly damaged or unfit for mainspace, increasingly workload of NPP. I would certainly support 180 days, which would take care of the majority of the article on NPP. Obviously there is articles being added from donkey's ago, but the majority are under that limit. I will destroy the effectiveness of both NPP and AFC. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scope creep (talk • contribs) 14:16, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Scope creep, at the moment, Special:NewPagesFeed shows only one article that was created more than 90 days ago, but even that article would still qualify for unilateral, zero-discussion-required draftification, as it's only been in the mainspace for five days. Just because the NPP queue gives an older date for page creation doesn't mean that the article has been in the mainspace (or has been a non-redirect page) that long. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:06, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
    • @WhatamIdoing: Yip, but it is not always like that. There was lots of articles created from months back that can arrive on the queue. I've seen several admins quitely going back to put back article into mainspace, that were older than 180 days, so when I saw that action, I set my own limit to 180 days. scope_creep^Talk 00:26, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

      Right, but that makes the page older than 90 days, whereas this proposal is talking about how long it's been in the mainspace, not how long since the date of the first visible revision. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:46, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

      And, you know, if it's been in the mainspace for >90 days, then the only change is that you couldn't dump it in draftspace without first getting consensus for doing that. "Talk to some other people first" does not seem like a very onerous requirement. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:47, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

  • All it will do it populate Wikipedia with articles that are badly damaged or unfit for mainspace Have you considered, you know, nominating those articles for deletion? Which is what you're supposed to do with bad articles? Draftifying articles that you know will inevitably be auto-deleted in 6 months is appointing yourself as judge, jury, and executioner of the article. Wikipedia is built on consensus, not unilateral decisions. Mlb96 (talk) 07:08, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
    • No It is not an ad-hoc case of just nominating the articles for Afd. Many of these that go to draft are absolutely notable, but they often have serious problems and need time to be worked. The majority are notable. That is what draft is for. It is the ideal place for these types of problems. That is the solution is used industry wide, everywhere. It is not death sentence. That is assumption that your making and is not based on fact. It wasn't in the original design for ACTRIAL and isn't in the original process now. scope_creep^Talk 15:21, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
    • @Mlb96: And badly damaged doesn't mean non-notable, in any instance. scope_creep^Talk 15:29, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose - as written. There needs to be clarity about when the clock starts ticking. For example, an article is created on January 1, it consists of 3 paragraphs, wholly uncited. It's about a subject which can be redirected (say it's about a book and the author has an article). On January 3 it gets turned into a redirect. On April 15th, someone comes upon the redirect and reverts it, adding a single source to the author's webpage. Now, technically, this article was created over 90 days in the past. In this new criteria, that article would be ineligible to be draftified, while it is clearly not suitable to remain in mainspace. I would not be opposed to the 90 day limit if there is some clarification about when the 90 days begins, but not sure how that should worded. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 19:29, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
• Weak oppose I am sympathetic to the idea that draftification is sometimes used when the right thing to do is AfD. So on that level I support this. However, the concern expressed by Onel about the current wording is troubling to me as well and so that balances out to this weak oppose. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 20:10, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

  @Barkeep49 and @Onel5969, if you look at the comments below, I believe that your concern has already been addressed. The idea of "anything over 90 days old" is meant to be interpreted as an actual article in the mainspace for the last 90 days, not merely a calculation of the date of the oldest revision. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:09, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

  Putting it in as a formal bolded !vote makes it far more likely that the closer will adequately weigh it when determining consensus than a comment by one person which was agreed to by a second editor. So I wouldn't at all say my concern has been addressed, but I am hopeful it can be addressed in the end. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 22:17, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

  @Barkeep49, AFAICT there isn't any "current wording" to object to. The OP seems to have proposed a principle rather than a specific sentence to be added to a specific page. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:15, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

  That could be technically true @WhatamIdoing but adding "anything over 90 days old should be is ineligible for draftification without consensus at AfD" to WP:DRAFTIFY (i.e. a minimally changed version of what was originally proposed) would seem to be the default unless the close indicates otherwise. I am stating here what my thinking is and am hoping it will influence consensus appropriately. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 17:24, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose. A quick look at Special:NewPagesFeed shows the back of the queue to be around 4 September 2021, if you subtract out even older articles that were probably added by flipping a redirect into an article. That's 168 days. So if you are a back of the queue new page patroller, and there is a 90 day limit on draftification, then articles in the back of the queue are no longer eligible. The NPP would need to pay attention to date created and do math or install a user script, adding additional burden. Additionally, draftification is a very important NPP tool for dealing with articles of borderline notability or poor sourcing. I am not convinced that taking this tool away from NPPs patrolling the back of the queue in order to prevent over-zealous draftification is a good tradeoff. By the way, are there any diffs or statistics or evidence that over-zealous draftification is a major, frequent problem? Is this possibly a solution in search of a problem? Don't forget, anyone can object to draftification and move it back, and double draftification isn't really allowed per WP:DRAFTOBJECT. This existing workflow seems fine for dealing with overzealous draftification. –Novem Linguae (talk) 21:10, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

  @Novem Linguae, but how long has that article actually been in the mainspace? If you're looking at the same one that I saw, the answer is 5 days, not 168. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:12, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

  @WhatamIdoing, the article I'm thinking marks the back of the NPP queue currently is Kluaynamthai. Articles older than that are more spaced out, so I assume the are redirects that got flipped to articles, so I'm not counting those. –Novem Linguae (talk) 22:18, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

  Do you think that this article, which has already been PRODded once, and which is already indexed by search engines, should still be subject to unilateral, undiscussed draftification by anybody who's managed to make 10 edits, rather than being sent to AFD to identify the consesus? WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:14, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

  I think it is reasonable for an NPP reviewer to have draftification available as an option when reviewing unreviewed articles, both at the front and the back of the queue. –Novem Linguae (talk) 03:27, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

  @Novem Linguae: Look at Special:NewPagesFeed, click on "Articles for Creation", sort by created date (oldest), and show unsubmitted articles. Many such cases of overzealous draftifications. People aren't going to object if they last edited several years ago. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 22:14, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

  Chess, thanks for your comment. I spot checked the first 5. Draft:Dean Shomshak was draftified per AFD. Draft:Gladius fighter was a redirect flipped to an article recently, so essentially a new article. Draft:Ancients (board game) was draftified per AFD. Draft:List of fictional medical institutions was deleted at AFD and WP:REFUNDed recently. Draft:Freespace was a redirect flipped to an article recently, so essentially a new article. All 5 draftifications were by experienced users and seem reasonable to me. Really I think the only quibble is that 2 of these could have been flipped back to a redirect instead of draftified, in order to leave the redirect in place. In conclusion, I am not convinced from this spot check that poor draftification decisions is a frequent problem. –Novem Linguae (talk) 22:26, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

• Support Bad/poorly sourced articles on notable topics belong in mainspace where they can be improved (barring WP:TNT). Articles on non-notable topics need a WP:PROD, relevant WP:CSD tag, or an WP:AFD discussion. Borderline cases to WP:AFD. Unilateral draftification seems to sometimes function as a run-around to the current processes. I'd support an outright ban on unilateral draftification, but since this seems more likely to gain broad support, I'll throw my support here. Ajpolino (talk) 21:39, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose should be 90 days after it's patrolled. Non-patrolled articles should not enjoy immunity just because NPP is backlogged. Also, the proposal needs more clarification about when the timer starts. (t · c) buidhe 21:57, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

  @Buidhe, why should anything that's already been patrolled by dumped back in draftspace? Isn't figuring out whether an article should be in the mainspace kind of a major purpose of patrolling? WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:11, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

  Yes, after it's patrolled it should not be draftified, but before it's patrolled should be fair game because the NPP backlog goes back more than 90 days. (t · c) buidhe 22:16, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

  @Buidhe, can you give me the names of a couple of unpatrolled articles that have already been in the NPP queue for more than 90 consecutive days? WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:19, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose Looking at the 6 examples given in the original proposal (30 days), one was undeleted to draft per WP:REFUND by an admin after the article was prodded. This seems a legitimate action. Of the other 5, 3 were draftified by new users (less than 1,000 edits). Agree with previous comments that a time limit would would be counter productive to NPP. This proposal misses the problem that in the majority of these 'old' articles gratification was carried out by inexperienced editors. A far more effective solution would be to limit the ability to send articles to draft, either by minimum edit count or by a new permission. --John B123 (talk) 22:05, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

  John B123 that's an interesting point, but I wonder at what point permission creep would turn the process a bit too bureaucratic and unfriendly to new editors. I have no opinion on the whole matter (NPP is not an area I spend time with), but just a thought. A. C. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 13:17, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

• Support As I stated above, Draftifying articles that you know will inevitably be auto-deleted in 6 months is appointing yourself as judge, jury, and executioner of the article. Wikipedia is built on consensus, not unilateral decisions. These articles should go to AfD where the community can decide what to do with them. Mlb96 (talk) 07:10, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose This feels like the wrong fix for the problem. If people are misusing the draftification process, the answer to that is not to impose an arbitrary time limit after which the process may not be used/misused. Draftification can be a valid outcome of a new page review, I don't see why it should be taken off the table entirely purely on the basis of the age of an article - if the queue is backlogged, and nobody has got to a new article until the 90 days has elapsed, the first person coming to it should have the full range of options. Girth Summit _(blether) 07:24, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
• Support, simply from the perspective of fairness. If someone has created an article and it sticks around for 3 months without it being touched, it's not reasonable for a single lone actor to decide they don't like the look of it and effectively delete it by the back door without any checks and balances. Look at this from a human point of view, it's demoralizing. I could have supported the 30 day limit too, as it's not like this really cripples NPP irreparably - you still have AFD and CSD available.  — Amakuru (talk) 07:53, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose What has happened to the old fashioned concept of Using Good and Mature Judgement? What do we then do to the editor who missed the deadline by a day? ANI?
  We expect editors who use tools like the draftification script, or just plain old article moving to use judgment. We do not expect to legislate for every single goshdarned instance of what may or may not happen here. Wikipedia started with a tiny set of rules, and now we have an enormous bureaucracy. Do we like rules so much that we must enforce them on every single facet of building an encyclopaedia?
  Of course it's foolish to draftify an old article. Of course it is. No-one denies that. Of course doing so is an error. Of course it is. But codifying every possible circumstance makes Wikipedia harder and harder to use, it makes it a club for the initiates.
  This proposal seems to me to be a knee jerk reaction to an editor's good faith error. We do not need legislation for every error. What we need is guidance, education.
  Please let us continue to educate, not legislate. Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 09:09, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

  Using good judgement went out the window when people no longer exercise it. We expect them to use good judgement, and they don't. This comes from many different editors for a wide variety of reasons.

  And I'm going to go out on a limb here, if we're complaining about how Wikipedia is hard to use, draftification is the prime example of this. It's user hostile and is effectively a dark pattern that makes the user believe that draftification is mandatory and cannot be appealed. There is no information provided to users that they can unilaterally move out of draftspace, that they're not forced into this. The standard message tells people the only way to get out is AfC, a process where editors are led on in a lengthy scam that their topic may one day be notable if they just find elusive sources which in reality results in editors waiting months for reviews until they get bored and leave.

  Draftifying old articles is the most hostile aspect since the editors who created them are usually long gone and have no intention to work on them. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 01:16, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

  Then educate people. Rules, rules and more rules do not make a happy experience here. Soon we'll need permission to use vowels!

  Oh, a heads up here. You will need to educate people for these proposed rules anyway. So why not just educate them? Or is it so we can issue sanctions against people? Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 12:16, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

  @Timtrent: Perhaps we should make it a standard part of the movetodraft script that editors must be informed that they can unilaterally move the draft back to mainspace? Would that be a part of the education you're OK with? Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 21:31, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

  Oh please let us have more pitfalls for people. Have you noticed that we not only have admins, but bureaucrats, stewards, arbitrators, a whole panoply of functionaries? The more rules the greater the ability to drive editors of all experiences away. TYhemore rules the more visits tio the drama boards, to ArbCom.

  I know I am not on the winning side here. You've started a populist movement, rather like the Turkish people were encouraged in electing a perpetual dictator who jailed a while cross section of Turkish society lest there was dissent. And no, you are not the dictator, but you are enabling more rules, something I find to be counter to the spirit of Wikipedia and thus distasteful Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 21:44, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

  The pressure on NPP reviewers (and similar editors) is to avoid approving an article that someone else might later claim was insufficient. The pressure to correctly accept articles on notable subjects is weaker than the pressure to exclude articles that could be complained about. This has led to a ratchet effect on standards and to pages lingering in the queue despite multiple admins and reviewers looking at them, because reviewers are humans, and therefore become afraid to be the person who can be blamed for clicking the button later.

  This proposal is a small effort to balance the pressures. If it's been in the mainspace for three months already and is still unreviewed (a relatively rare occurrence), and nobody's been willing to mark it as patrolled in that whole time, then we need to make that article the whole community's problem, not have one person hide it in draftspace. And, for the more worrisome case, if the article has been in the mainspace for years, and was marked as patrolled by NPP years ago, then there should be some level of discussion before dumping it in draftspace, rather than a unilateral, undiscussed action by one editor. This rule might push us back towards collaboration and away from one individual making the decisions.

  BTW, I looked through the move log for yesterday. Most moves from the mainspace to draftspace were pages that had been created within the last 24 hours. There was another big group (about 15–20 pages) that were all about 60 days old. There were very few that weren't in those two groups. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:03, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

  @Timtrent: This RfC could go either way as I am tragically not allowed to jail the people who showed up in the past few weeks opposing my proposal. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 18:28, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

  @Chess Generally one must go with the flow without jailing people. I think you need to be grateful that sufficient people on each side of the proposal have given opinions. That should be genuinely satisfying because you are building consensus. Whatever the outcome you have built consensus. Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 18:52, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

  @Timtrent: I am being sarcastic because between now and when you compared me to a populist who jails dissidents many people have shown up to dissent against the proposal despite your prediction. One would infer that this is because I can't jail the oppose !voters. I somewhat doubt we will have "built consensus" though as my prediction is this'll probably end in "no consensus". The only consensus is that we shouldn't draftify old articles; but we already have a consensus about that. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 18:58, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose overly prescriptive limit; solution in search of a problem. Stifle (talk) 10:27, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose per Novem Linguae and Timtrent (Fiddle Faddle) above and Mccapra in the discussion below. A hard limit seems at odds with how our policies and guidelines are intended to work. What happens when someone drafties an article on the 91st day? A limit of 90 days will further impact the WP:NPP workflow which if anything needs more simplifying, both for backlog management and editor retention. If we have drafts that could be articles getting deleted—and I don't see much evidence presented that they are—what we need is for admins working G13 to be more careful about what they delete, and it is they who should be give more and clearer guidelines on identifying promising drafts and putting them through alternative routes to improvement or deletion by consensus. Regards! Usedtobecool ☎️ 16:08, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:CREEP. There needs to be some room for discretion. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:58, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose per Stifle and Beeblebrox. Doesn't seem to actually solve anything, and adds pointless bureaucracy. ansh.666 22:40, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
• Comment I find it really fascinating that this was a unanimous support a few days ago, and then this discussion gets added to WP:CENT and it is a straight-line of oppose. Just goes to show the importance of collaborating to the fullest potential, in order to ensure that the consensus reached is the actual consensus! Curbon7 (talk) 01:32, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
• Support draftification of old articles is basically deletion by the back door, but without any of the review and oversight that comes with the usual deletion processes. As a result it makes sense not to allow it. While each case is different and there is scope for discretion, that doesn't mean we can't have a bright-line limit beyond which it's generally considered unacceptable, as we do with 3RR. Hut 8.5 08:44, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose Per Beeblebrox. Having such an arbitrarily defined hard limit seems ill-advised. ThePlatypusofDoom (talk) 09:00, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose these and any other proposals that would make draftification more difficult than speedy deletion.—S Marshall T/C 23:11, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

  Draftification should be just as hard to do as speedy deletion. In both cases you are removing content from the mainspace of encyclopaedia without consensus. Thryduulf (talk) 15:39, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

  Most things we do here are "without consensus", including the creation of articles, which is very easy. Speedy deletion on the other hand is restricted to admins and is strictly based on consensus-agreed reasons, so your comment doesn't seem to make any sense. Plus: draftifying can be checked by everyone, not just admins: it can be reversed by anyone, not just admins. And people with a track record of poor draftifications can always get a topic ban, just like with most issues around here. Removing sub-par content from the mainspace (but on a notable topic, so perhaps salvageable) should be applauded, not vilified. Fram (talk) 15:55, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose Absolutely not. This proposed idea is hopelessly bureaucratic, difficult to enforce, and will undoubtedly lead to increased drama via WP:ANI (which is already busy enough as-is). If someone is causing trouble with inappropriate draftication, then block them, problem solved. No need to impose pedantic rules on the rest of us. -FASTILY 23:22, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

  Disputes over draftification are supposed to go to AfD. Not ANI. SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:35, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

  Yes, and I don't think anyone here disagrees with that. As others have already stated above, the 90-day limit is totally arbitrary. What are we supposed to do if someone converts an article to draft at 91 days? -FASTILY 09:57, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

  Same as now. WP:DRAFTOBJECT. SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:16, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

  I don't see how that's relevant to what I'm talking about. I foresee behavioral issues and increased drama (both accidental and premeditated) which typically leads to ANI. -FASTILY 23:05, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

  Sounds like the problem is with ANI, if it gets involved with drama when there is a simple process available. SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:34, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

  That makes no sense and doesn't address any concerns I've raised. When drama escalates, it frequently gets reported to ANI. I can't imagine why you're so fixated on this part, you're missing the forest for the trees. -FASTILY 23:53, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

  User:Fastily, I am not fixated, I just commented on one angle of your !vote and do not challenge most of it. But if you’d like comment on your details then: This proposal merely changes WP:DRAFTIFY’s “old” to “90 days”. Maybe old should be measure by edits, or pageviews. Maybe 90 days is too few or too many. In any case, it’s not more bureaucratic than the current 2d, just more precise. Difficult to enforce? I don’t see how it makes “enforcing” DRAFTIFY#2d harder, usually bright lines make enforcement easier. I don’t think it will increase any drama; I am already surprised that unilateral draftifications have been controversy free for so long. I foresore sneaky deletionism, clearing out the old permastubs, but have seen no evidence, despite watching the logs from time to time.

  If any drama does arise, draftification disputes should be sent to AfD, which should mean the discussion doesn’t bog down at ANI. If a particular editor keeps having AfD discussions repudiating their unilateral draftification, a meaningful remedy will be to remove their pagemover right.

  I am not fixated, I think this proposal is of no real consequence either way. SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:16, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

• Moral support I think draftification as a backdoor to deletion is a loophole that should be tightened, but this specific proposal would likely lead to more problems than it solves. Making the draftification window longer, at least a year but maybe two, would strike a workable balance and avoid NPP concerns. — Wug·a·po·des​ 07:05, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
• Support Draftification is not a way to delete an abandoned article. We should have {{update}} template. Thingofme (talk) 12:12, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
• Support with modifications, namely changing "articles" to "patrolled articles". --Ahecht (TALK
  PAGE) 13:31, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose, I see no good enough reason for this. Fram (talk) 15:55, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose As said above, people with a poor record are already liable to get their privileges restricted, so it makes no sense to institute a universal ban, the time limit in which is bound to be completely arbitrary anyway. Avilich (talk) 00:54, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
• Support in concept. I'm not sold on the length of time, but I do think we should disallow the draftification of longish-standing articles as most of the time it's a sneaky method of avoiding AfD/PROD. Anarchyte (talk) 03:56, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
• Support, as a clear ratification of WP:DRAFTIFY #2d “ 2d. The page is a recent creation by an inexperienced editor. (Old pages, and pages by experienced editors, deserve an AfD discussion)”. 90 days seems reasonable. If it is too long, then it means AfD will be more used for obvious draftifications, which I don’t think is a current problem. If pages are unseen for 90+ days, this should be given more fuss, and AfD is an ok place for the fuss. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:12, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose Per concerns about above when the 90 days begins and the length of the new page backlog. I can think of many articles (such as class projects, unfortunately) that could fit in to the project but are not ready for mainspace and would be better draftified. Reywas92^Talk 18:40, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose why on earth would we limit ourselves to an arbitrary period of time? This will just result in "wikilawyering" and drama—use some common sense, please? -- TNT (talk • she/her) 18:43, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose per my arguments below; insufficient evidence that this is actually a problem, whereas articles that have few eyes on them are a very serious problem. If an article that has actual eyes on it is draftified then the situation is easily settled, and if an article does not have eyes on it then that is a problem and the "safe" thing to do is to allow for draftification - we should absolutely default to "get it out of mainspace ASAP until a clear consensus is formed" in those situations. Strenuous objection to the argument that mere age, alone, gives an article any particular weight or protection - this completely misunderstands WP:QUO (which is the implicit policy being used here.) Status quo comes from an article having been seen from many people, not simply aging like fine wine, and such articles are at little long-term risk from draftification, so I don't think it is necessary to have a policy to protect them. If an article has had few eyes on it, on the other hand, then absolutely should not have any special protections regardless of its age, and moving it to draft space when someone objects to it is a reasonable thing to do. --Aquillion (talk) 00:51, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose Though I think this is a solution in search of a problem, I would support 6 months (nice that it aligns with the G13 cutoff), but 90 days is WAY too short. UnitedStatesian (talk) 22:17, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose if an article is moved to draft, it can be moved back by anyone immediately. Any article, however ‘mature’ that is unsuitable in its state for mainspace should be allowed to be draftified. We should be making this easier, not more difficult, and certainly not based on some arbitrary time limit. (I encounter spam articles of >10 years old that have never been in a state of decency but where I expect notability - moving them to draft and enforce them there to be brought up to level is better than AfD). Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 03:58, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
• Support, but would prefer a shorter time limit. If we have to have draftification, then it should only be applied to the newest articles as part of triage work, others should got through other discussion mechanisms like AfD. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 07:38, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
• Support. In fact, I am against unilateral draftification under any circumstances or age. If the creator has not agreed to draftification and no one else has volunteered to work on it, then draftification is just slow backdoor deletion by G13. If the page is a fit encyclopaedia topic, leave it for someone to improve. If it isn't, then delete it outright rather than pretend to be helping it along. SpinningSpark 09:49, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose. At the minimum, if a page qualifies for G7 speedy deletion, it ought to be eligible to be moved back to draft-space by the creator or at the creator's request, but this proposal gives no room for that. It would be silly to permit pages to be speedy deleted while not permitting them to be moved to draft-namespace for the same reason. 49.198.51.54 (talk) 11:15, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose. I don't see the benefit of setting a time-limit. Also, "Draftifying" is not a backdoor to deletion. It maintains edit history, and is still an actively editable document, which deletion does not allow. --Jayron32 16:13, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

  Let's imagine that I decide that articles currently citing no proper sources – there are 188K articles tagged by Template:Unref, so I'm sure I'll find plenty – are, in my personal opinion, "unsuitable" for the mainspace.

  I can:

  • Send it to AFD, but then people are going to care more about whether the subject is actually notable, rather than the article being underdeveloped, and where someone might point out the awkward fact that we do not actually have a written policy that requires non-BLP articles to cite any sources at all, much less for them to be WP:Based upon sources that weren't written by the subject.
  • Try to PROD it, but then any single editor could stop me, and the reviewing admin might object, especially if I'm known for trying to use deletion as a substitute for improving articles.
  • Move it to the creator's userspace, where it will probably stay forever (unless I also spam an AFC tag on it, but that's mean to the AFC folks).
  • Move it to draft space, where I'm guaranteed that either: (a) readers won't see it some other editor does the work to bring it up to my standards or (b) it gets deleted because nobody touched it for six months.

  Looking at these options, if I want it gone, then PROD's my fastest route, and Draft: space is my most reliable route. About 22% of recent deletions (approximately the last two days), across all namespaces, has been via G13 in the draft space. This is twice the number of revdel actions in all namespaces combined and five times the number of expired PRODs that were deleted during the same time period. It is also four times the number of Draft: pages that were moved (mostly to the main namespace) on those days. This is just a two-day snapshot, but if those two days are representative, then if I dump a page in the draft namespace, there's about an 80% chance that it will end up deleted without any editor spending more than one minute considering my choice to set the article on that path towards deletion. This is what we mean when we say the draftspace is a "backdoor to deletion". Pages dumped there are very likely to end up deleted without much consideration beyond verifying that the article isn't obviously great and hasn't been edited during the last six months. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:39, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

  Well if you (and by you, I mean you, WhatamIdoing, not the impersonal, rhetorical you) don't want the draft deleted, you can edit it so it is clearly a quality article. If your concern is that an otherwise potentially quality article may be deleted, just fix it. No one here is stopping you. --Jayron32 14:50, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

  Perhaps the people who love to WP:DRAFTIFY can do it? Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 06:57, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

  @Jayron32, in this story, I'm the one who wants the page deleted, and I want it deleted even though I think it might be a notable subject.

  If I wanted it kept, then I'd leave the article in the mainspace. I'd do this first because not putting it on a path to deletion is an obvious way to keep it, but also because the previous research has shown that leaving pages in the mainspace is more likely to result in their improvement than dumping them in draftspace. This fact is why the people who originally proposed and supported the creation of the draftspace now consider it to be a failed experiment. If you want pages improved, you have to put them where the editors already are, and that's in the mainspace. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:12, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

  Draftification of an unmatched paged and G13 auto deletion six months later is definitely back door deletion. I think the better question is whether the backdoor is being misused. SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:19, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

  "Draftifying is not a backdoor to deletion" has to be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. WP:DRAFTIFY is strict on that matter for a reason. Curbon7 (talk) 05:23, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

  If it wouldn't be blatantly WP:POINTY, I would be happy to see someone draftify-to-delete all of the WP:NPROF articles that currently cite only sources written by the subject/his employer. I suspect that I'm not the only editor who has a few ideas about which articles are "unsuitable" and would be very unlikely to pass muster at AFC. But we don't do that, because Article content does not determine notability and WP:Consensus matters.

  OTOH, if we really do want to have a rule that says any individual editor's best judgment about whether an article is "unsuitable" is all that really matters, then let me know... I figure that if it were done slowly and quietly enough, then a whole bunch of those self-promotional NPROF articles could disappear, and this might solve the NSPORTS conundrum, too. The guideline can declare that the subject is notable, but one individual can draftify it because the current state of the article "unsuitable", and 80% of them will disappear for lack of active editing.

  Whoever gets stuck closing this: If you find that there's consensus for this draftifying articles that have been around for longer than 90 days (six months? a year? ten years?) because I think they're "unsuitable", then please explicitly state that in your summary. A clear statement that the word "old" in the 2d point of Wikipedia:Drafts can encompass any length of time that I feel like, so long as I think the article is "unsuitable", would forestall a lot of problems when editors start using this no-discussion route to deletion more freely for articles they deem "unsuitable". WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:26, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose per Beeblebrox. Spencer^T•C 04:17, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
• Support Please please please. It is really annoying to be scolded by a page reviewer with a year or two under his belt who wants me to know that some translation I did ages ago does not meet his standards. Yes, wikipedia articles in other languages sometimes don’t meet our standards. The fact that I did pro bono remediation on something should not mean I have to sign up to cure every single one of its ills, or fish through Google Books for references in another language just because some automated tool has an opinion about it. PS: Somebody do another one of these for sending unfinished drafts to mainspace also. Thanks from a wiki gnome who tries to solve problems xoxox Elinruby (talk) 10:54, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

  Opposing a ban on draftification is not a blanket endorsement of every draftification ever to be done. It's an endorsement for allowing the process which has its own remedy built-in: reverting the draftification and rendering that option moot. A ban to disallow the process, outright, is overly burdensome, for no appreciable good reason --John Cline (talk) 11:05, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

  ok boomer. If you think I oppose all draftification, you’re reading too fast. I can imagine cases where it is helpful, which atm all involve new editors and recent contributions. There may be others. Meanwhile, I support the proposal as written, because putting some time limit on it increases the odds that a) a new editor won’t have dropped out already over some other piece of automated rudeness and b) the author remembers enough about the topic to easily remedy whatever the issue might be. Elinruby (talk) 11:20, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

  Actually, I am an agnostic on whether the standard should be 90 days or some other number. I am not that familiar with performing new page patrols. But as an editor I really think there should be *some* standard. Per John B123 (talk · contribs), I actually like the idea of a standard for the ability to patrol new pages somewhat better. My objection to the current practice is that it is arbitrary. It is demoralizing to need to explain to a new editor who only writes about soccer why medieval Lebanon is important even with two references, or Operation Car Wash, even with interlanguage links. Or a founder of São Paulo even if he had a funny name. I have one of those right now. Elinruby (talk) 15:37, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

  @Elinruby, nothing you create should be draftified. WP:DRAFTIFY explicitly says "2d. The page is a recent creation by an inexperienced editor. (Old pages, and pages by experienced editors, deserve an AfD discussion)." You've been editing for more than 15 years, and you've made about 65,000 edits. Maybe we need to update the scripts so that they generate an error message for "old pages, and pages by experienced editors". WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:29, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

  @WhatamIdoing: Maybe you do, because I here to tell you that this does happen. I have a draftified article right now from sometime last year. I am not getting to it anytime soon because I am up currently to my neck in Russian information war against Ukraine, which seems more urgent. It will probably be deleted pretty soon as a stale draft if the pattern holds. Whoever did this was probably right about its defects —it was a translation from Portuguese wikipedia, which tends to be poorly referenced. But it expanded on a mysterious redlink in History of São Paulo, which has been languishing on a please-help-me queue for eons. I just barely got it into English and definitely don’t have the skillz to go find 17th century documentation for it. But if somebody were to want to read History of São Paulo it was interesting and expanded somewhat on the fact that the colonial city may have been founded by castaways, shrug. I am over it, but I spent a couple of days on it and this is one of several similar reasons I no longer work these queues. But to those saying no harm no foul, editors can always undraftify, I had no idea this was the case, so yeah there is harm. Most of the articles this has happened to were in obscure niches but were somewhat important within them, represented a non-negligible amount of translation work, and were killed by newish editors whose own efforts were concentrated in obscure niches of American or British culture. Elinruby (talk) 06:27, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

  @Elinruby Yes, I think if you're the one who has done most of the work on an article and someone draftifies it, unless you are very sure that other editor has done so against policy, the normal reaction would be frustration, not "that was wrong, I'll just move it back to mainspace". -- asilvering (talk) 02:11, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

• Support Draftifying often seems to be an end round around speedy deletion as I often stumble upon articles that were around for years that someone draftified for no apparent reason and no one noticed happen so then 6 months later they were deleted as being an abandonned draft, when the article if it had not been draftified would have been an easy keep. -DJSasso (talk) 14:35, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose as written. NPP often has backlogs longer than 90 days. However, I'd support this with the exception of unpatrolled articles that have never been patrolled. Elli (talk | contribs) 18:52, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose The downsides are the various ones describes above. The potential upside is solving or reducing a problem, but I don't see where it has been shown that there is a problem that needs solving. The example "problem" discussed in the proposal was just that there is a draft languishing in user space somewhere which I don't see as a real problem.North8000 (talk) 19:57, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
• Support as a good concrete expression of a basic principle that's already in the guidlines: draftification is only for new articles. If an article has been around for three months, then it will have already been looked at by a large number of editors (NPP only accounts for a fraction of the attention directed at new creations). Also, after such a period of time, it's not very likely that the original creator will still be around and interested in it, so draftification isn't likely to spur anyone into improving it (which is the reason things get draftified in the first place). – Uanfala (talk) 16:45, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
• <RFC about Draftifying old articles> (unnecessary subheading removed){{pbI'm not sure if Legobot "requires" a new section to do its dark bidding, so starting a new section to be safe, and someone more well versed with the bot can probably edit this section/tags accordingly.{{pbThis is a RFC on the Village Pump Policy, started by User:Chess. The proposal is 'I'd like to propose that anything over 90 days old should be ineligible for draftification without consensus at AfD. More details and explanations, as well as current !votes can be found above.{{pbSoni (talk) 11:33, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

  @Soni: All that Legobot "requires" is (i) an {{rfc}} tag having one or more RfC categories; (ii) a brief statement of the issue to be discussed; (iii) a valid timestamp, such as is produced by the use of either four or five tildes. That's all. It cares nothing for whatever occurs before the {{rfc}} tag, but headings inside the statement can screw it up. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 15:21, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

  The RfC statement - and therefore the {{rfc}} tag - need to be before the comments. This is not a Legobot requirement: it is so that people arriving via the publicised link will hit the right spot and be able to read on without flipping back up the page. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 15:30, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

  • Thank you for explaining/fixing this Soni (talk) 15:38, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Comment Will this brand new RfC be considered binding on all editors and admins? Because I don't think it has been widely publicized and it should run for at least one month. I can't believe such a drastic new policy will be decided here. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:54, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

    This RFC would presumably result in the addition of a sentence to Wikipedia:Drafts (and/or other suitable pages), and it would presumably be just as binding as anything else on that page. If someone did unilaterally draftify an old article, the solution would be just to move it back (and presumably also send it to AFD), maybe while saying something like "Sorry, I didn't know that had changed. Thanks for telling me". WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:20, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

• I'd prefer a limitation to articles that had been touched by more than one live editor. BD2412 T 03:15, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
• For a redirect newly converted to an article (and so newly put into the patrol queue), is the intention to count 90 days from the creation of the redirect or the conversion from one? I can see this incentivizing perverse outcomes either way. Ditto for pages created more than 90 days ago and only newly moved into mainspace. —Cryptic 04:26, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
  • My assumption would be 90 days from the conversion; the redirect might be seven years old, but the article is only ten days. BilledMammal (talk) 04:32, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
• Comment A lot of the older articles were cleared in the November push. That is the reason you cant see them. The whole RFC is badly designed, too quickly promoted and not sufficiently publicised. scope_creep^Talk 12:53, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
• Comment the more I think about this the less sure I am this proposal makes sense. Draftification is for articles which a patroller thinks are likely to be notable, but where the sourcing is inadequate. AfD is for articles which we think are not notable (though we may be proved wrong). So directing likely notable articles to AfD after 90 days would require one of two things. Either the patroller does not do a normal BEFORE and just says “hey everyone this may be notable - is it ok to draftify it?” to gain censensus; in which case editors at AfD will get annoyed at lots of nominations with no BEFORE; or the patroller does a BEFORE, sources the article, and ends up not taking it to AfD because notability is now demonstrated; in which case they do the article creator’s work for them. That’s a great outcome for the collaborative project but I doubt most patrollers will be willing to do it in most cases. It’s mainly up to creators to source their own work.{{pbDiscussions about draftification always sound like there’s a bunch of keen editors out there desperate to get to work on poorly sourced new articles, and somehow hindered by draftification. If there are such editors draftification helps them because it gives them a work list, so I don’t see the objection. If neither the creator, nor the patroller, nor editors worried about draftification are keen to do the work of sourcing, it doesn’t much matter if it’s in mainspace or draft.{{pbI understand there may be some editors draftifying inappropriately so vigilance is required, but whether this requires a system change rather than dealing with those individual editors, I’m not sure. Mccapra (talk) 11:51, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

  If a patroller is determining notability of an article without doing an at least BASIC WP:BEFORE then they should not be patrolling. If they improve an article then that is a Good Thing - Wikipedia is a collaborative process, articles do not have owners and there is no requirement for immediate perfection, and ultimately if a topic is notable we want an article on it. As experienced editors it is our responsibility to help those less familiar with our policies and practices, draftification is frequently the exact opposite of that. Thryduulf (talk) 15:45, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

  Sure it’s a good thing if patrollers improve an article. I’m just saying patrollers didn’t sign up to provide sources for articles started by others. We may do that sometimes; more commonly we do a quick search and can see there are probably sources to support notability. If an article has been tagged for weeks or months and not improved, draftification isn’t some hideous disaster, it’s the appropriate route to take. Taking it to AfD doesn't make sense because we’re not tying to delete it, we’re trying to get the creator to source it properly. Mccapra (talk) 19:20, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

  No you're not "trying to get the creator to source it properly", you're trying to get someone other than you (who may or may not be the creator) to source it within 6 months while simultaneously making it harder for people to find. If it's sufficiently problematic that it needs to be made less accessible then that's what AfD is for, if it's not actually problematic enough for that then you should not be moving it anywhere. Thryduulf (talk) 00:32, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

  Well if the creator isn't responding to tags, and nobody else has either in 90 days or whatever we agree, but the topic is likely to be notable, my choice is mark it as patrolled and hope that someone eventually comes along to sort it out, or stop and do the work of sourcing it myself (assuming I can, thought for many I can't), or, as I said above, bring an article lacking sources but likely notable to AfD, which isn't really what AfD is for. Mccapra (talk) 13:04, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

  AFD is for determining whether or not an article actually "is notable", and establishing that, rather than relying on one person's judgement about whether it's "likely", can be a valuable contribution.

  @Mccapra, you said Draftification is for articles which a patroller thinks are likely to be notable, but where the sourcing is inadequate. I'm curious: Inadequate for what purpose? WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:19, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

  Inadequate for the purpose of demonstrating notability, e.g. lacking sources, or sourced only to self-published sources, blogs, PR or social media. Mccapra (talk) 05:32, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

  There is no rule that says articles must provide sourcing that demonstrates notability. We actually have a rule that says the opposite: Wikipedia:Notability#Notability is based on the existence of suitable sources, not on the state of sourcing in an article. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:40, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

• Comment I find that Mccapra has got to the core of this, and I concur with their view. Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 09:26, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
• Support - If a topic is notable, the article can be improved in the mainspace. Darkknight2149 05:15, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
• Comment This discussion originally started with examples of several very old articles being wrongly draftified (which seems to me to be about individual editor behaviour rather than anything systematic). That’s already against established consensus but the case was made that the rules needed tightening and firming up. I’ve got no objection to that, if it helps stop inappropriate draftification. As the discussion has moved on though it now sounds like some editors don’t like draft space at all. If the consensus is that “If a topic is notable, the article can be improved in the mainspace” we can just get rid of draft space and stop fretting about time limits. Mccapra (talk) 05:45, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
• Support Draftifying articles causes them to be hidden from most of the community, excepting the article creator, New Page Reviews, and AFC reviewers. This impedes the normal editing process that helps fix issues in regular articles, which can cause a page to go stale without attention given by the creator. These drafts then get G13 deleted after 6 months. Draftifying articles should generally not be done unless it is likely the creator will fix the issues present in the article. If an article has unfixable problems, such as notability, the article should just be deleted. If the article has fixable problems, such as verifiability, the normal editing process should handle them. Draftifying is not a miracle cure. It is only intended for very specific situations. 2601:647:5800:1A1F:B59F:66D4:2C8D:EA30 (talk) 00:23, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose; insufficient evidence that this is actually a problem. If an article is of sufficient quality (or can easily be brought up to sufficient quality), and it has eyes on it and people reviewing it, then it can be rapidly moved back to mainspace, but if it is not then I see no reason why the simple passage of time should provide special protection against draftification. Many people have objected to the idea of articles being draftified with "minimal review" or with few eyes on it - but it is a much bigger problem for a low-quality or deeply-flawed article to exist with minimal review and with few eyes on it. Tossing an article that obscure into draftspace until someone fixes or recreates it is not a serious problem; having articles that have had no real attention paid to them lingering around is a far more serious problem. The criteria that gives an article its "established" status is therefore the number of people who have seen and reviewed it and the number of eyes that are on it, not the mere passing of time. --Aquillion (talk) 00:51, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose. Too similar to the above proposal. Suggest withdrawing to avoid duplication of !votes/effort. –Novem Linguae (talk) 01:15, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

  To the closer, the above !vote was made when this section was a separate subheader that may have been the same proposal but with an RfC tag. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 18:31, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

• I've got a number of conflicting thoughts on this, and don't know where I stand overall.
  • Banning any subset of draftification is, no question, going to result in an uptick of speedy-deletion requests, and most of those articles will likely be deleted. G11 is applied more leniently in draftspace than mainspace by almost all admins, and of course A7 can't be used on drafts at all. I've seen plenty of mercifully-draftified articles that I'd have speedied had they not been moved.
  • Deletion is the most contentious of the commonly-used administrator-only tools. While, say, a block might raise a ruckus - perhaps even a substantial one - one time out of ten thousand, the overwhelming majority go unremarked and have unanimous consent besides, of course, the blockee. In contrast, there is no entirely uncontroversial use of the delete button except for a subset of G7s. Poor speedy deletion tagging has always been one of the more common reasons for an RFA to fail. Despite that, we hand out the pagemover right like it's candy.
  • Best practice, although not universally followed, for speedy deletion is tag-and-bag: even if you're an admin, you should in almost all cases tag a page for speedy deletion by another admin rather than deleting an untagged one yourself. Moving pages out of mainspace with the redirect suppressed, by contrast, is just about always done entirely unilaterally. I'd be in favor of outright banning the use of suppressredirect for moves out of the main namespace if I thought I could trust CAT:R2 patrollers to verify the page move was correct instead of just mass-deleting the category with Twinkle.
  • It takes six continuous months of zero edits and objections between draftification and G13 deletion. If nobody either notices or cares that a page has gone missing for that long, then our encyclopedia hasn't lost anything it can't afford to.
  • WP:CSD ¶3 says A page is eligible for speedy deletion only if all of its history is also eligible. There's an argument to be made that a page that was once in mainspace and not speedy deletable there doesn't become speedy deletable just because it's been sitting in the draft namespace for six months: it could just be reverted to the mainspace version. —Cryptic 02:40, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:CREEP, and the fact that I don't see how this particular time limit is going to improve the encyclopedia. I don't see the problem that this fixes, but I see some problems it causes. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 02:45, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
• Support Any standard for draftification or for that matter new page patrol generally as it is a huge barrier to participation in article translation and a significant if not major cause of editor attrition. Elinruby (talk) 15:52, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose The downsides are the various ones describes above. The potential upside is solving or reducing a problem, but I don't see where it has been shown that there is a problem that needs solving. The example "problem" discussed in the proposal was just that there is a draft languishing in user space somewhere which I don't see as a real problem. North8000 (talk) 19:56, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
• Note - This is not a separate vote. This was an arbitrary section header added when I was adding the RFC template, because I was not aware of Legobot technicalities. It is merely a rehashing of the section above, and is defunct now that someone maintained the RFC template to be in the right place. If you're voting, use the above section, not this one. Soni (talk) 00:36, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

  @Soni: Now that so many people have voted here that is too late. The easiest thing to do is remove the subheading (which I have now done) and let the two sections flow together. Please strike your bolded instruction not to vote here. SpinningSpark 08:36, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

  @Spinningspark:  Done. The alternative would be to move the votes there, but this is sufficient enough. Soni (talk) 23:48, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

  I thought this section was a meta-discussion subsection on whether to make this an RfC. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 18:30, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

• Support - 90 days is plenty of time for someone to notice that an article needs to be removed. Otherwise, AFD is a perfectly acceptable solution. Nosferattus (talk) 19:48, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose As a NPP reviewer I echo the concerns of other editors who know that 90 days is not nearly long enough. ––FormalDude talk 13:58, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

  @FormalDude, WP:Drafts says that you shouldn't draftify "Old pages, and pages by experienced editors", but instead send them to AFD. How do you apply that? Is "old" a matter of days, months, years? Is "experienced" a matter of edit count, years of editing, number of articles created?

  I suppose the first question ought to be: Did you even know that's been the rule since 2017? WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:05, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

  Considering I've been here since 2017, yes, I did know. It is purposefully vague. ––FormalDude talk 22:50, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose I mainly work in this area; what I principally do is rescue draftified articles that are notable and significant, but have been neglected. Any arbitrary limits on what gets draftified, or how long the material can remain, serve to cause the rejection of good or at least usable content. I also work at NPP, which is chronically behind; it can not be assumed that something not patrolled for 90 days is suitable for the encyclopedia -- it is more likely to be the opposite. Draftification is the only practical way of handling this, as an intermediate position. DGG ( talk ) 19:43, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose, though I sympathize with the broad contours of the "support" argument much more than the typical positions on the "oppose" side. I understand the problem that's been raised here, and I do think it is actually a problem, but I do not think this will solve it. If page patrollers and page movers aren't doing those duties correctly, giving them another rule to follow isn't going to make them any better at it. -- asilvering (talk) 02:23, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Side question re: Draftification

When an article gets draftified, do we require that it have a “sponsor” (ie an editor who agrees to at least attempt to improve it). If not, should we? Blueboar (talk) 20:18, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

We currently don't. It is assumed that the creator will continue to work on it, but in practice this assumption is regularly incorrect, and indeed the older an article is the less likely the creator is still around to work on it. This is one reason why draftification is delayed deletion in many cases and the problem the main proposal is attempting to solve. As for whether we should require a "sponsor", I'm not sure. We would need to be explicit that a sponsor is not an owner nor could we compel them to be responsible for the actions of others (e.g. no sponsor should be penalised because someone else moved a draft they sponsored to mainspace before it was ready). It's an idea that merits more thought though. Thryduulf (talk) 22:00, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

No we don't require it, and in the vast majority of cases there isn't one. I fully support the idea that there should be a sponsor before draftification, because if there isn't one then it is pointless. Further, the sponsor should be named in the draft template and it should be obligatory to contact the sponsor (perhaps by bot message) before the page can be deleted just to make sure that they don't want to continue working on it. SpinningSpark 09:12, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Wouldn't the sponsor be the creator? The creator of every draft (including those moved from mainspace) receives a bot-delivered notice to their talkpage when there is one month before G13. Most editors who tag the draft with G13 using Twinkle also take advantage of auto noticing the creator's talkpage (though in practice there is rarely enough time between tagging and actual deletion for this second one to have any effect). So creators are being notified. UnitedStatesian (talk) 20:04, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

When people ask me to give them the content of a deleted page for further work, I usually put the article in their userspace a) so that it doesn't get auto-deleted [U1 doesn't apply to pages moved to userspace from elsewhere] and b) because if you ask for the content of a deleted page, I expect you to take some responsibility for it. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 18:47, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

These pages in userspace will still be G13 deleted after six months of inactivity if there is an AfC tag on the page. UnitedStatesian (talk) 20:04, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Definition of "advanced rights holder" per the UCoC enforcement guidelines

The draft Meta:Universal Code of Conduct/Enforcement guidelines that the WMF has approved says that:

The following individuals should be required to affirm (through signed declaration or other format to be decided) they will acknowledge and adhere to the Universal Code of Conduct...

• All advanced rights holders;

I was wondering what categories of user rights count. While it seems unlikely the WMF will make WP:Extended confirmed contingent on signing a loyalty pledge, do you guys think the requirement to affirm one's political conformance will end up applying to WP:New page reviewers, WP:Rollbackers and the like? What about AfC reviewers? We will likely have to write our own policy in the near-future to implement this. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 21:38, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

A clarification about what 'Advanced Rights' means here is needed, yes. Because do we really need admins to send signed documents to the WMF stating they'll abide by the UCoC? Crats? AWB Users? Checkusers? OTRS volunters? Filemovers? Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 22:06, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

I might be missing something, but it seems to be spelled out in the glossary meta:Universal_Code_of_Conduct/Enforcement_guidelines#Glossary:

Advanced rights holder

user who holds administrative rights above typical editing permissions, generally elected through community processes or appointed by Arbitration Committees. This includes, as a non-exhaustive list: local sysops / administrators, functionaries, global sysops, stewards.

SQL^{Query Me!} 00:14, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

So they expect all of those people to out themselves? North8000 (talk) 22:10, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

• I asked the question there at the talk page, specifically about the training which will be compulsory to these individuals, but so far I have not received any clarification. If no clarification is forthcoming, I am going to vote against the document.--Ymblanter (talk) 22:14, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

'Enforcement guidelines'? George Orwell might have something to say about that particular phraseology... AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:16, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

• I'd expect it to at least include everything requiring being on the NDA list; though they may push it down to everyone with viewdelete access on local projects as well (i.e. sysops). — xaosflux ^Talk 23:14, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

• • From [7] - "Advanced rights holder: user who holds administrative rights above typical editing permissions, generally elected through community processes or appointed by Arbitration Committees. This includes, as a non-exhaustive list: local sysops / administrators, functionaries, global sysops, stewards." - so yes - this does appear to include Admins. Whether it also includes those users who end up getting the limited ability to see some of the details of IP editors when IP masking is introduced is uncertain.Nigel Ish (talk) 00:12, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
• Good luck to them if they try to do that. Black Kite (talk) 00:03, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

• I'm unfamiliar with the whole UCoC thing, and would appreciate if more experienced editors or those in the know could drop by my talk page to explain. A. C. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 23:43, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

@A. C. Santacruz: The UCoC is indented to be a centralized and uniform code of conduct for all Wikimedia projects. It would be a supplement to the WMF Terms of Use; thus outranking global and local (community-created) policies. The UCoC is divided into a Phase I (contents of the Code) and a Phase II (enforcement guideline for the Code). As I understand it the WMF introduced the UCoC to more thoroughly repress harassment and discrimination, so they're not subjected to the same allegations of hosting defamatory content as Facebook and Twitter were. The Code has been approved by the WMF Board of Trustees and will be put up for ratification sometime soon. The UCoC also establishes the U4C Committee, which I believe will function as some sort of Meta-level super ArbCom; it will be responsible for the Code's implementation and will serve as the ultimate (appellate) body for UCoC cases. Colonestarrice (talk) 14:04, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the clear explanation, Colonestarrice :) A. C. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 14:16, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

• Signing, if that is the route chosen, will almost certainly not involve paper documents or disclosure of personal information (with the possible exception of a name). See m:Confidentiality agreement for nonpublic information/How to sign for how it works for the current confidentiality agreement and the most likely form it will take if they choose to require signing something. Thryduulf (talk) 21:04, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
  • That page mentions adding your "name" in several places. Its talk has no substantive comments since 1 January 2016 but it might contain some clarification regarding what "name" means here. According to an October 2015 reply you can use either your user name or your real name. Johnuniq (talk) 22:02, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
• Hi all, I think the question was already answered by linking to and quoting the glossary, though I'd also draw attention to the part about permanent advanced rights holders not being given a deadline for the acknowledgments (" with exception of current advanced rights holders with rights that are not up for renewal who will not have a set timeframe to accomplish these affirmations"). Xeno (WMF) (talk) 23:01, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

  To be fair, the very next sentence says: This may be changed on review after a year following the ratification of these guidelines. So existing admins could very well be forced to do this in a year. --Floquenbeam (talk) 23:16, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

  We should probably assume that means they will try to force it in a year, with the year delay being a tactic to avoid an outpouring of opposition until it's too late. Yes, that's pessimistic, but with the way the whole thing has gone so far... Anomie⚔ 13:20, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

  @Anomie: Considering the review will be subject to community consensus, I have my doubts as to whether they will succeed on that front. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 21:15, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

  @MJL: Where is that said? All I found about review was mention at m:Universal Code of Conduct/FAQ#Periodic reviews says that "The Foundation’s Legal Department" will "host" it, but not whether any such review would be subject to community consensus (versus being a "consultation" where the WMF ultimately decides to do what they want). Anomie⚔ 21:59, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

  @Anomie: The guidelines state in Purpose, The Universal Code of Conduct Coordinating Committee: ... makes suggestions to the Wikimedia Foundation and the community for changes to this document "UCoC Enforcement Guidelines" and the UCoC itself. (emphasis added) If that's a bit vague, we have the section written regarding the U4C Building Committee: The work of the U4C Building Committee will be ratified either by the Global Council or by a community process similar to the ratification of this document. There's a lot of contingencies here, but I have not seen anything that would suggest the community won't have the ability to amend the UCoC and its enforcement guidelines post-phase-2-ratification. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 07:15, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

  A lot of contingencies indeed. Given that this already seems like a power grab after they were rebuffed over the Fram overreach, I'm inclined to be wary. Anomie⚔ 11:58, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

  Does this mean that next time I resign my admin bit in protest against the WMF, I won't get it back until I agree to the UCoC? —Kusma (talk) 23:16, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

  Possibly. Nothing has been finalised yet, and there isn't anything explicit that I can see about people regaining previously held advanced rights other than through renewal. If the crats decided you needed a new RFA then I think it likely (but not certain) that (as things stand) you would need to accept the UCoC before getting the bit back, straight restoration could go either way. If you (or someone else) was desysopped as an emergency measure due to a potentially compromised account but were quickly resysopped when things were resolved then I don't think the break in service would be relevant to the UCoC. On the other hand, if someone is desysopped for inactivity then restoration would (imo) require acceptance of the UCoC. Thryduulf (talk) 11:49, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

• As a question, this has been answered. As a policy proposal, it is out of order. The requirement for checkusers, etc. to agree to various terms is well-established, and not a matter subject to community consensus. If the WMF suggests that all administrators need to agree to terms, there will certainly be debate (and hopefully the WMF will listen to the sensible arguments against such an action), but it will still not be a matter for community consensus. User:力 (powera, π, ν) 01:53, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Cast your mind back, to the olden days, the beforetimes, way way back, to 2019. There was this guy called Fram. Whatever one may think of Mr. Fram, there was broad agreement that the office over-reached and try to do something that they shouldn't. When enough admins refused to go along with it, they backed down and let the local community handle it. If these insane enforcement guidelines actually get approved, I suspect we will see the same thing on a much wider scale. I believe the enforcement provisions represent a grave danger to this project. This may not be by design, it may simply be that those drafting the policy did not consider the broad consequences of forcing loyalty pledges and mandatory training on literally thousands of people who are all volunteers and have never had mandatory training for anything before. This is not the same as an NDA at all. The "affirmation" requires the admins not only to follow the UCoC but to enforce it as well. Failure to affirm, follow, or enforce, the UCoC could result in an outside group, the "U4C" removing our local admins with there being nothing we can do about it. Except quit in protest. I hope it doesn't come to that, but it could if this nonsense becomes actual global policy. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:13, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

Apology

A couple of weeks ago, in the wake of a controversial recent RfA that failed on the grounds that the applicant was a minor, I posted here some general thoughts on whether, if we were going to insist on that as we seemed to, we should also consider that there perhaps ought to be a maximum age.

I honestly had hoped for some sober discussion, and indeed the first response, from the only admin who, as far as I'm aware, has personal experience with this issue, was what I had hoped for. But I underestimated how much of a sensitive issue this is for some people, and was a little taken aback by the response from the community. I was accused of trolling, and at one point later, when I was distracted by something IRL and in a rush, I posted a short response that I should not have that gave credibility to that assertion.

The discussion was then closed, which was probably a good thing the way things were going (Maybe at some subconscious level I wanted to end it). So I hereby, per a suggestion I received in the wake of that debacle, apologize to the community and anyone who thought I was trolling.

I have decided that perhaps in the future I will take the time to develop a userspace essay where I can develop these thoughts in a manner which will lead to the more thoughtful discussion I had hoped for.

In the meantime, someone suggested I get trout-slapped. I understand where they're coming from, and I appreciate that sometimes gestures are seen as making one's apology sincere. But I think it would be better if what I did benefited the community, and so I am open to suggestions that I do some amount of editorial or administrative tasks that accumulate which no one likes doing, but needs doing, and may have gotten backlogged, as a true measure of penitence (Call it "wikimmunity service"). Post them here or on my talk page. Daniel Case (talk) 05:49, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

You proposed minimum and maximum age requirements? I wasn't aware of it. For why did you do that? Why not an "idea lab" instead? George Ho (talk) 06:05, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

I never proposed minimum age requirements; just noted that they seem to exist informally given the amount of times out minors have been rejected for adminship on those grounds.

Perhaps I should have used the idea lab, but I don't post here much and the instructions seem to suggest that this was the best forum for that. Daniel Case (talk) 08:03, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

This is a perfectly valid subject of concern to the entire community. I did see your attempt to engage the community on this subject and I think you have no reason to apologize to me, or editors like me, who regularly read these threads. I am one who supported the admin candidate and I don't think age was the primary factor in the discussion, though a central one. As I read the discussion, the community wanted to see more history after some of the candidate's admitted bad calls. For my part, I think User:theleekycauldron proves daily at DYK what a rock solid and trusted contributor they are. It heartens older editors like myself to see younger editors' success. I am hopeful about the future.

On the topic, this is technically an HR-related problem, which means an issue like this might be in front of the Wikimedia board. Any non-profit volunteer-driven enterprise requires a capital base and trusted leadership. This encyclopedia was originally executed largely using BBS-era open-source technology. Occasionally it became necessary to hire somebody smart to operate the physical equipment and maintain the capital strategy. Then we have a human resources department. Often in business (especially non-profits), the capital base eventually presumes dominance. The project purpose becomes less like our BBS and more like a business. An office, a water-cooler and the Dilbert-like world. This means rules for volunteers (see Terms of Service and Universal Code of Conduct controversies). It's not really the wild, wild west like it used to be. Someone has to answer for stuff which tends to paint the foundation in bad light. I thought during leek's RfA User:Jclemens framed it correctly: "...given that I have firsthand experience as an admin (and OTRS, CU, OS, and Arb) and the candidate disclosed their own age, it becomes ethically incumbent for me to oppose as an act of non-maleficence." This is the responsible position, regardless of the candidate's bonafides and wishes. If I were a Wikimedia board member, I'd have a hard time arguing with the position taken by editors like Jclemens. BusterD (talk) 21:24, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

@Daniel Case, when you're working on that essay, I recommend looking for ethics advice aimed at older physicians. AIUI, the usual recommendation is to encourage retirement well in advance of any decline in mental function. The goal is a well-planned honorable retirement by a beloved person, rather than a long career hastily ended after being tarnished by mistakes made in the final days.

If you're looking for numbers, then it may be useful to know that about 25% of people develop some clinically significant signs of dementia by age 80, and 50% by age 85. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:15, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

That is an interesting figure. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 22:20, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

Do you have a source for the the claim that 50% of 85 year old show clinically significant signs of dementia? Vexations (talk) 22:46, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

I was not the one who made the claim, just said it was interesting. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 23:12, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

Adding Template:Hidden image in WP:Bad image list

Can We add Template:Hidden image in WP:Bad image list contained article's respective images? This template is frequently used in Arabic wikipedia and subsequently Hebrew wikipedia.103.230.104.27 (talk) 14:09, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

WP:NOTCENSORED. And I've nominated Template:Hidden image for deletion for that reason. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 14:47, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

User has also posted this at WP:VPR. Also, this isn't even an image. ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{Blaze Wolf#6545} 15:38, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

"She" for ships

Please see: Manual of Style talk Talib1101 (talk) 18:08, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Comments on the upcoming vote on the Universal Code of Conduct (UCoC) enforcement guidelines

Folks, the UCoC is badly written and voting in favour of the enforcement guidelines in the upcoming vote (starting March 7) now reduces the chances of the UCoC ever getting fixed. So I advocate voting "No".

Also note that hundreds of Wikimedia staff (WMF and affiliates) are encouraged to participate in the vote (even if they have never edited any of the wiki projects), and that the threshold to approve the guidelines is just 50% rather than the customary two-thirds majority. To my mind, this means vote is stacked in favour of approval from the beginning.

To give some examples of the problems with the UCoC, take the definition of harassment.

Per the UCoC, this includes: "Disclosure of personal data (Doxing): sharing other contributors' private information, such as name, place of employment, physical or email address without their explicit consent either on the Wikimedia projects or elsewhere, or sharing information concerning their Wikimedia activity outside the projects."

As written, this literally means that Wikimedians will not be allowed to share "information concerning [other contributors'] Wikimedia activity outside the projects". This may not be the intended meaning, but it is the literal meaning – like Fight Club: "The first rule of Fight Club is you do not talk about Fight Club."

What about "place of employment"? There are pages on Wikipedia, in project space and article space, that discuss contributors' place of employment (including by implication, in some cases, the address of that workplace) without their consent. Examples:

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Congressional_staffer_edits

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orangemoody_editing_of_Wikipedia

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki-PR_editing_of_Wikipedia

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Scientology_editing_on_Wikipedia

Wikipedia editors and arbitrators have in the past commented on such cases to the media ... take this seminal article for example, which was directly responsible for the changes to the WMF Terms of Use outlawing undisclosed paid editing:

• https://www.dailydot.com/irl/wikipedia-sockpuppet-investigation-largest-network-history-wiki-pr/

What Wikipedians like User:Doctree, User:Dennis Brown and others told that publication about Wiki-PR editors' activity falls foul of the letter of UCoC as presently written, does it not?

Then there are cases like the ones listed below. From the perspective of the UCoC, as written, all the protagonists in these cases ("David r from Meth Productions", "Qworty", "Wifione") were victims rather than perpetrators:

• https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2011/09/hari-rose-wikipedia-admitted

• https://www.salon.com/2013/05/17/revenge_ego_and_the_corruption_of_wikipedia/

• https://www.newsweek.com/2015/04/03/manipulating-wikipedia-promote-bogus-business-school-316133.html

What about the UCoC's definition of "psychological manipulation"? "Psychological manipulation: Maliciously causing someone to doubt their own perceptions, senses, or understanding with the objective to win an argument or force someone to behave the way you want."

What if someone genuinely and honestly subscribes to fringe beliefs, or is just not competent (think Scots Wikipedia)? They will encounter plenty of volunteers who will try to "cause them to doubt their own perceptions, sense, or understanding with the objective to win an argument" ... and "force" them to stop inserting said fringe beliefs into articles!

As written, the UCoC passage about psychological manipulation can be read to criminalise ordinary debate ... but debate is how the Wikipedia sausage is made.

This UCoC passage, if approved, will multiply accusations of "gate-keeping" lobbed against volunteers. There are enough such accusations already, often unjustified; there's no need to provide extra encouragement.

It can also be used arbitrarily against anyone who has ever advocated a point of view, or tried to change another editor's mind, because what is "malicious" is entirely subjective. Think of Russian Wikipedia in the present circumstances ... this passage, as written, could be used to wiki-criminalise anyone who "maliciously causes others to doubt their own perceptions, senses or understanding" (which they gained from watching Russian state TV).

That's before we get to other issues like having a right to be heard ...

So, to my mind there's no choice but to vote no. The UCoC is not fit for purpose. First you fix WHAT you want to enforce, then you vote to enforce it. We haven't done the first thing yet; voting for enforcement now is putting the cart before the horse. --Andreas JN466 14:04, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

• Sadly, I have to agree. Part of the problem is that it contains a lot of “CofC jargon” - the sort of overly lawyeristic language that is found in a “typical” corporate or academic code of conduct. Language that sounds nice in the abstract, but does not reflect the reality of how WP actually operates. Blueboar (talk) 15:45, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
• I agree. It seems to be a tool to control the projects. We are no longer a community, but instead, subjects of the Foundation. Mere peasants. No thanks. I volunteered almost 16 years ago to help a project, not to be an unpaid employee suject to the whim of those who are paid, and are uninvested in the "free" part of what we do.. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 16:32, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Per the UCOC enforcement guidelines, I will begin to zealously enforce the UCOC on Wiki when it is passed. The first step will be the MfD of Wikipedia:Lunatic charlatans and User:JzG/charlatans per their use of an insult based on mental illness (the word "lunatic") and implying that the people POV pushing are unable to comprehend reality. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 18:44, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Should good articles be nominated for deletion?

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Historical background of the 2014 pro-Russian unrest in Ukraine

--Knight Skywalker (talk) 14:06, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

• Yes—why not? A few months ago a featured article was nominated for deletion and the result was merge. JBchrch talk 15:31, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
• Articles are suitable to be merged/deleted/redirected etc. regardless of the quality scale. We've had plenty of FAs be deleted in the past. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 15:33, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
• Any change in policy which prevented 'good articles' from being deleted or merged would inevitably result in abuse of the 'good article' designation. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:37, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
• Any article should stand on the merits of its subject. Designations like GA and FA are indications of the quality of the article, rather than notability of its topic. If you think this one should be kept then argue for it in the deletion discussion without regard to the quality of the article. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:02, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
• If you think a GA or FA you should be deleted, I'd strongly recommend making sure to do a really thorough WP:BEFORE and ensuring the deletion nomination is well thought out, clearly articulated and proofread, but there is and should be no prohibition on the nomination. Thryduulf (talk) 18:23, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
  • Would like to note that way back in the day there was a hoax that was a Good article. I think Thryduulf has the right idea. -Indy beetle (talk) 23:00, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
• Who remembers Bulbasaur (AfD discussion)? Uncle G (talk) 09:29, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
• Notability is not written into either the GA criteria or the FA criteria (although in current times it is a bit harder to get a NN subject to FA). If it's not notable, then AFD is the way to go. I've nominated a GA for deletion before (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/M-144 (1937–1939 Michigan highway), ended in redirect). Besides the Lewis AFD linked above, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Doug Ring with the Australian cricket team in England in 1948 (2nd nomination) is another example of a FA not surviving an AFD. Hog Farm _Talk 20:53, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Universal Code of Conduct Enforcement guidelines ratification voting open from 7 to 21 March 2022

Hello, the vote mentioned above is now live. Those ready to cast their ballots can jump to votewiki locally via Special:SecurePoll/vote/802. For more details, see below or Voting page on Meta-wiki. Xeno (WMF) (talk) 00:19, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

---

You can find this message translated into additional languages on Meta-wiki.

More languages • Please help translate to other languages.

Hello everyone,

The ratification voting process for the revised enforcement guidelines of the Universal Code of Conduct (UCoC) is now open! Voting commenced on SecurePoll on 7 March 2022 and will conclude on 21 March 2022. Please read more on the voter information and eligibility details.

The Universal Code of Conduct (UCoC) provides a baseline of acceptable behavior for the entire movement. The revised enforcement guidelines were published 24 January 2022 as a proposed way to apply the policy across the movement. You can read more about the UCoC project.

You can also comment on Meta-wiki talk pages in any language. You may also contact the team by email: ucocprojectwikimedia.org

Sincerely,

Movement Strategy and Governance
Wikimedia Foundation

---

Let me know if you have questions. Xeno (WMF) (talk) 00:19, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

WP:NPOL

Seeing as the sports discussion is now closed, I think it's time we examine another notability policy: WP:NPOL, which applies to judges and politicians. NPOL reads in full, minus the explanatory footnotes:

The following are presumed to be notable:

• Politicians and judges who have held international, national, or (for countries with federal or similar systems of government) state/province–wide office, or have been members of legislative bodies at those levels. This also applies to people who have been elected to such offices but have not yet assumed them.
• Major local political figures who have received significant press coverage.

Just being an elected local official, or an unelected candidate for political office, does not guarantee notability, although such people can still be notable if they meet the general notability guideline.

I have two main quibbles with this that I think should be reconsidered. Firstly, in my experience officials at the state/province level, concerning both leaders of executive departments and legislators, do not tend to necessarily get the requisite SIGCOV in RS necessary to write even a basic article by virtue of simply holding such offices. I've written articles concerning officials/politics at the state/province level in both the United States and the (1960s) Democratic Republic of the Congo. It is really hard to find SIGCOV of some these people. Most provincial assemblymen in the Congo during the 1960s, and most of the provincial ministers as well are not covered in RS, or at best are named in sources and maybe tied to a public comment or two but nothing beyond. Even some of the Royal Museum for Central Africa's monographs on provincial history don't say much about the ministers beyond when they held certain jobs. If you disagree, I welcome you to try and write some of those yourself. As for the American state legislators, standard government bios and newspaper coverage in the recent years has been helpful, but I'd wager to estimate that for the pre-1900 era, many/most of these legislators are only known by their name and the constituency they were elected to, nothing more. Those that are known and have decent Wikipedia articles seem to more likely than not have held more important offices later in life or had distinguished military and business careers. In short, I think automatic presumption of notability for simply holding some sort of subnational provincial/state office is a bad idea. I do not think this status serves as a genuine predictor for good SIGCOV being locatable.

Secondly, the Major local political figures who have received significant press coverage seems like a bowdlerized way of suggesting that GNG is the standard...why not simplify it to that? Of course, I personally think GNG should just be the only standard for almost everything, but that's my personal preference. Anyways, I think these points are worthy of community consideration. -Indy beetle (talk) 09:40, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

• I don't think the NSPORT RfC is a good example to follow. It was a 6 week-long behemoth of a discussion where the original proposal and the vast majority of sub-proposals trainwrecked and in the end only led to only two, relatively minor changes. Why not propose these changes on the talk page of WP:NPOL and discuss it with editors interested in the topic first? – Joe (talk) 10:14, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

• "two, relatively minor changes"? Hardly. (1) The SNGs for American football, baseball, basketball, rugby, cricket, and association football were rescinded. (2) a new mandate for SIGCOV was adopted, barring the creation of substubs sourced only to databases. And (3) the presumption of notability has also been excised as well. Nothing "minor" about these changes. Cbl62 (talk) 23:03, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

  • Strongly agree. The close of NSPORT went from a disagreement about the utility of micro-stubs created from (generally reliable) databases to ripping the floor from the clarity of the SNG. This was a big change and I don't think we will understand the magnitude of the changes for a while. Enos733 (talk) 23:36, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

• Agree with Joe. I'd also say that it might be a good idea to wait after the NSPORTS discussion has finished (a few weeks maybe) just so there is more interest in discussion your proposed changes. I feel many might see this as yet another NSPORTS trainwreck if you start the discussion in too quick of a succession. A. C. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 10:23, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

• One advantage of having a reasonably clear-cut notability guideline in this area is that we can avoid many of the otherwise inevitable arguments about notability, which would be dominated by people claiming that the person who agrees with them about politics is notable but the person who disagrees is not. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:28, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
• I also don't think the NSPORT RfC is a good example to follow. The initial proposal and the close failed to understand the purpose of the SNG and its connection to the values of this project. As I mentioned late in the discussion, "which sets are worthy of being complete? To answer this involves a certain about of real world judgment of what is considered important and a certain amount of "should we expect everyone in the set to have independent coverage.... I think this is generally what the SNG is supposed to do, suggest people/events meeting a defined criteria have a certain real world importance and are likely to have some substantive coverage". As a community we have the core values of anyone can edit (so the editors decide, to a certain degree what is worthy to write about) and that the goal is to create a verifiable encyclopedia (also reflected in WP:NOTPAPER). As a community, we decided that individuals serving in government with law-making powers have both real-world importance and are likely to have biographical information in reliable sources. Without this clear bright line, we are likely to have longer and more intensive debates over whether the coverage of a subject is substantive (see WP:Articles for deletion/Jamie Fitzgerald (American football) for a preview of what might happen without clear lines). --Enos733 (talk) 23:01, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

As I do believe in clarity for editors, I am working on a draft of guidance of political candidates. --Enos733 (talk) 23:01, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Enos, in response to your comment: As a community, we decided that individuals serving in government with law-making powers have both real-world importance and are likely to have biographical information in reliable sources. Two things, first of all, WP:Notability says Determining notability does not necessarily depend on things such as fame, importance, or popularity [my emphasis on importance]. Secondly, I am directly challenging the notion that by virtue of holding legislative power that these lower officials are likely to have biographical information in reliable sources. -Indy beetle (talk) 23:10, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

I read "importance" in this sentence as meaning "high rank or status," similar to "fame" or "popularity," rather than being consequential or significant. But again, the purpose of an SNG is to help clarify that real-world notability, to help new editors think about who is eligible for an article, and minimize debate at AFD. I do think that nearly all people who hold federal or state/province-wide elected positions do have biographical information found in reliable sources and the current version of NPOL is quite clear (except for political candidates). Enos733 (talk) 23:31, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

This is simply not the case. I've held off on writing some articles on provincial governors in the Congo for lack of better info. Many members of their national parliament from the 1960s don't even have basic biographical info (and I once consulted book which was solely devoted to discussing that parliament from that time period). What about Preston Brooks Callison, member of the South Carolina House of Reps and father of Tolliver Cleveland Callison Sr.? What about all of those listed here and here, for example? I sincerely doubt one could find enough info in RS to write basic articles on the hundreds of past assembly members stretching back to the late 1700s. -Indy beetle (talk) 23:49, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

I am not suggesting that it is always easy to create a biography on each elected official, especially in a pre-internet era. But, it is often doable. For Preston Brooks Callison, we can verify that he did serve two terms in the South Carolina House of Representatives, representing Greenwood County. (see https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/113638548/preston-brooks-callison). With these bits of information we can narrow our search to find information and search the archives. We should be able to find articles about Callison's campaign, the bills he sponsored, the committees he served on, and probably some information about his life before or after the legislature. Enos733 (talk) 00:06, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

On name changes and article names.

Hello, during my years in Wikipedia I have noticed that when either a company or a person changes their name, Wikipedia tends to change the name of the article almost immediately.

With people this is very contentious so I will narrow the scope to company name changes Standard & Poors to S&P Global, Facebook to Meta, Google to Alphabet.

Whether to change the name, keep it, or split into a newer article is a hard problem that might only be correctly solved with time (was the new name adopted? Did the company significantly change?).

What I always thought should be done was take a look at the name that most of the references are using, seems like a simple rule that would avoid playing into P&R stunts that confuse matters. With regards to the Standard & Poors, the take of an employee was that they were trying to lose their negative associations with the 2008 financial crisis, the same cynical take can be though of with Facebook and the Cambridge Analytica incident.

Another issue is introducing anachronisms to these articles, suppose the phrase "Mark Zuckerbeg founded Meta on 2001", clearly should be "Mark Zuckerberg founded Facebook on 2001", this is regardless of article names, I think we can all agree on this. Meta's page is compliant here, but something to take into account when dealing with these name changes.

As you can see adopting a name change, especially immediately, can be a problem, what do you think of a convention of waiting for the references to reflect the name change to prove adoption and notability of the new name?

Thanks for reading.--TZubiri (talk) 22:36, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

I think policy IS in line with what you describe; I think in the case of companies, this kind of thing tends to happen as a result of overly zealous "business enthusiastic" possibly COI editors frothing at the mouth to use a business' new name the second it becomes official. We don't, for example, do that with countries: whena country changes its name, we wait for sources to reflect it, usually (unless it's part of some heated nationalistic feud, e.g. Macedonia..). And corporate articles also are likely less watched by the academic encyclopaedia type editors, so the high strung businessy editors have freer reign there.. 2600:1702:4960:1DE0:6451:588A:E890:CE87 (talk) 01:41, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

And I did see at least one such type anachronism, exactly as you described: "Instagram was purchased by Meta in 2011..." ....hello, no it wasnt! There was no "Meta" in 2011. 2600:1702:4960:1DE0:6451:588A:E890:CE87 (talk) 01:44, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

It might have been. It depends on how the corporate structure was handled and whether it's changed. When we say "Instagram was purchased by ____ in 2011", we mean "Instagram was purchased by a specific corporation, which, for convenience, everyone has agreed to call ____ in 2011". What matters is the thing, not what it's called. Focusing on the name instead of the thing is getting the wrong end of the Map–territory relation. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:02, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

In general, are animal and in vitro studies acceptable sources to support toxicology statements?

WP:MEDASSESS and WP:MEDINVITRO generally discourage the use of animal and in vitro studies to support statements regarding human health effects. This is because these studies do not translate consistently into clinical effects in human beings. However, in toxicology assessment, in vitro methods are preferred as screens over lab animal testing, and certainly over the typical process of human clinical research. Obviously, potentially poisoning humans to determine toxicity of a substance is frowned upon, so it may be hard to find studies that meet our high standards of medical evidence.

Generally speaking, should statements of toxicity status be subject to the same WP:MEDRS standards as all other medical statements, or should an exception be made to allow for in vitro and animal studies?

Secondly, should statements that a substance is toxic be subject to lower standards of evidence than statements that a substance is not toxic?

If the answer is "yes" to any of these questions, I propose we draft a revision to MEDRS to codify this exception. MarshallKe (talk) 16:26, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

@MarshallKe, this is kind of a technical subject, and you might have better luck with this discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Medicine or Wikipedia talk:Identifying reliable sources (medicine). WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:06, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Probably belongs at WT:MED (or even better, WT:TOX). Pretty much everything is "toxic" at some dose, even water. Alexbrn (talk) 17:50, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Without comment on appropriate venue, any substance approved for use in humans is first subject to in vitro and animal toxicology studies. It stands to reason that these are therefore suitable for mention on Wikipedia, so long as they're presented in context. MastCell ^Talk 18:19, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

I have notified the recommended pages. MarshallKe (talk) 18:48, 8 March 2022 (UTC)