< Bradley Cooper is Guillermo del Toro's monster in 'Nightmare Alley'

AISHA HARRIS, HOST:

"Nightmare Alley" is a stylish neo-noir that's as seedy as its title sounds. Bradley Cooper plays Stan, an ambitious 1940s drifter who joins a traveling carnival and learns to develop his own mentalist act. An encounter with a mysterious psychologist, played by Cate Blanchett, leads to a fateful and destructive turn of events. The movie is directed by Guillermo del Toro and inspired by the book, a 1947 movie adaptation of the same name. In the filmmaker's typical fashion, the period piece visuals are striking, and the cast is robust, including Toni Collette, David Strathairn and Rooney Mara. But does it work? I'm Aisha Harris, and today we're talking about "Nightmare Alley" on POP CULTURE HAPPY HOUR from NPR.

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HARRIS: Joining me today is writer Marya Gates. Hello, and welcome back to the show, Marya.

MARYA GATES, BYLINE: Hi. Thanks for having me.

HARRIS: And also with us is Odie Henderson. Odie is a film critic at rogerebert.com. It's great to have you back as well, Odie.

ODIE HENDERSON: Thanks - great to be back.

HARRIS: Yes (laughter). And you both - I mean, part of the reason we wanted to have you on is because you both are big film noir fans. So I'm very excited to get into this with you. But first, at the beginning of "Nightmare Alley," Stan, played by Bradley Cooper, ambles his way into joining a carnival troupe run by Clem, who's played by Willem Dafoe. He meets and falls in love with another performer named Molly, played by Rooney Mara. But he's also drawn to a clairvoyant act made up of husband-and-wife duo Pete and Zeena, played by David Straitharn and Toni Collette. They teach him the tricks of their trade, which involves an intricate, coded-messaging system known as cold reading.

Now, eventually, Stan decides to strike out on his own and leave the carnival behind. And he and Molly find success performing mentalist routines at the Copacabana. One of those audience members just happens to be psychologist Lilith Ritter, who's played by Cate Blanchett. Stan plots to team up with her and use his act to con her wealthy and powerful friends and acquaintances. Things go sideways very quickly as Stan becomes a bit too eager and greedy in his quest to reap the rewards of masterful manipulation. This is the first movie from Guillermo del Toro since his best picture winner, "The Shape Of Water." And he co-wrote the screenplay alongside Kim Morgan.

Now, Odie, let's start with you. What did you think of this remake of "Nightmare Alley"?

HENDERSON: Well, I liked it. In my top 20, it's No. 20. It would have been higher if it was not in color. But overall, I think it's very well-cast. I think that he chose people who fit a type in noir. And you could look at the characters, the actors that he chose, and think of noir characters and noir actors, actually, who mirror them or who they are evoking memories of. For example, you know, Cate Blanchett - in a lot of ways, I saw some Lizabeth Scott in her. And I saw some of Joan Leslie in, you know, "The Hard Way" or in "Born To Be Bad" in Rooney Mara's character. And Bradley Cooper, who's not normally one of my favorite actors - he actually plays to his strengths here because in most noir, the man thinks he knows what he's doing. And he's overly confident. And it's clear that he's wrong. I think Cooper really nails that.

HARRIS: Nice. Marya, how about you? What did you feel about this movie?

GATES: So I'm on the opposite side of the spectrum.

HENDERSON: Uh-oh.

GATES: I did not really care for it, partly because of the color. I don't think the cinematography works. I think it's too drab. I also would have preferred it in black and white. Apparently, there's a black-and-white cut somewhere. So, like, maybe I'll like it more. But to Odie's point about the actors feeling like film noir actors, I also got that vibe. But that, for me, felt distracting because I could feel when they were being - specifically, Lizabeth Scott. Like, I could feel that in Cate Blanchett. And it didn't feel like a new character. It felt like being, like, a mimeograph of a femme fatale.

And I think if she had had a stronger scene partner - I just don't think Bradley Cooper had the - I think he does have the shaggy dog-ness of a character that gets in over his head. But I don't think he had the, like, grasp of the rat-a-tat dialogue. And so when Cate Blanchett is, like, sending these volleys over, he's too naturalistic in the way that he performs. And so that I think it made the artificiality of her femme fatale feel more artificial. And if they had both been acting on the same kind of style, I might have bought it more. The other thing that really drove me crazy - and I don't know why they did this because it's not really in the book at all - is they kept calling Bradley Cooper kid and son and - as if he's, like, 25. And Bradley Cooper does not look 25.

HENDERSON: No.

HARRIS: No (laughter).

GATES: He is clearly a man in his 40s. And every time they did it, I was like, this is not Zac Efron. What is happening?

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GATES: The age really took it out of me because I was just like, why are they acting like he's this hayseed that fell off a cabbage truck or something? But there are more aspects that I enjoyed than didn't enjoy. It's just the things I didn't enjoy, I really didn't enjoy.

HARRIS: Yeah, interesting. I feel like I fall - so, Marya, you're on the not-into-this camp. And, Odie, you're a little bit higher. And I feel like I'm even just a little bit higher than you, Odie. Like, I really enjoyed this movie a lot. I think it actually is in my top 10, at this moment, of movies for this year. Granted, I'm still catching up on a lot of movies as of this recording. So there's a lot of things that I have not seen yet.

But I was just really drawn into this Bradley Cooper character in a way that I was not expecting because, like Odie, I'm not the biggest fan of his. You know, he's kind of coasted by on this very hetero, bro-y (ph) male type for a while. And I don't think that some of the accolades that he's gotten for his more dramatic performances necessarily, like, hold up to what is on screen. But here, I do think, for me, he really worked in a way that, like, he has - like, he's this character with a mysterious past. He always had this sort of ambition that was just waiting to be tapped. When he's in the carnival and he's interacting with the Toni Collette character - like, I loved those scenes.

I also loved the scenes with David Strathairn. And I just really - all the pieces for me really worked for the most part. I also didn't mind the color. Like, I thought it was really visually interesting. Now, is it kind of a rehash in a way, at least cinemagraphically (ph), when it comes to, like, "The Shape Of Water"? Yes. It's dealing with sort of the same - not quite the same time period, but close to the same time period. And it's using a lot of the same sort of color schemes - and sort of bright but muted. And I really just dug it and was engrossed by it for almost the entire running time.

I'm curious, though. Like, I know, Marya, you have read the book. And there are some differences between it. And I also want to talk a little bit more about the Cate Blanchett character because I wasn't entirely sure about her motivation. We don't have to get into spoiler territory. But I was a little bit confused by the end of like - what is this? And I'm wondering if in the book, it's a little bit clearer.

GATES: No. I do think the motivations that they give her in this film aren't in the '47 version. And they're not in the book. It's very different and very unique to this film. And I do think it works. It's a much more emotional - vicious, frankly - motivation in this version than she's given in the book or even in the other film. I think in the '47 film, she's really just sort of - like many a femme fatale, she just wants money. And then in the book, it's a little more, like, money and position.

HENDERSON: Right.

GATES: And just likes to toy with people. And in this, it really is - he does something to her, and she just tears him down.

HARRIS: Yeah.

GATES: I didn't really like how they did that. The major difference for me in this movie - there is a lot more gore. Obviously, it's not in the '40s version 'cause they couldn't really show violence that way. But Molly is very sexual - like, very sexualized in the book, actually. I was shocked. She's very much not in this film. They add implications of rape a few times in the movie that aren't in the source material, which I found a little disturbing.

But there are things that are in the book that aren't in this that I thought, you know, if you're going to make a movie in 2021, why aren't you really focusing on back-alley abortions and things like that? Like, it's a little implied. But it's like, you're - it's 2021. We can, like, go all-in on - I feel like that could have been brought out a little bit more, since it was a really major point in the, like, last third of the book.

HENDERSON: Also, I found it interesting that the movie kind of brings this up, and not so much the book, but it kind of equates psychiatry with carnies, with a grift. They're kind of taking people's thoughts and dreams and hopes and inner fears and throwing them back at them just the way a cold-reader would do. What's the difference between being cold-read by some guy who doesn't know you and a shrink dig - getting in your head? David Strathairn talks about how you can read people. Every little boy has a dog. Every little boy has daddy issues - all of this stuff. What do you talk about when you go to therapy? You know - tell me about your childhood. Tell me about your parents. And I found that to be - enjoyably nasty comparison.

HARRIS: Yeah. There's a great line that the Pete character says, where he's like, people are desperate to tell you who they are - to be seen. And for me, I think that's when it sort of clicked for me. And I thought the way in which the movie plays with that and compares it, like Odie said, to this Cate Blanchett character and her role, I think was really interesting. Could it have done maybe a bit more to - like, 'cause we never actually see her interrogating one of her subjects. Like, we don't see that side of things. We briefly hear it because part of the - one of the things that comes up is that, like, she has recordings of all of her sessions with her patients.

HENDERSON: In the 1947 version, it's more explicit that she's recording these people. It's how he finds out - how Tyrone Power finds out what her grift is.

HARRIS: I would like to talk a little bit more about, like, what your thoughts are on the sort of way we treat people who are known as, quote, unquote, "freaks" or "geeks" - like, and how that happens. And I know, you know, in the original book and the movie as well, they have that geek character. And that's, like, really a part of the whole, like, shaping of the narrative. And what did you make of those early scenes? Did it feel like it was trying to say anything bigger? Or did anything about those stand out to you in any way?

GATES: Yeah. They're definitely more violent than it's shown in either the book or shown in the movie. It is a really good frame narrative to show how desperation can create something monstrous. And I think Odie had pointed out that one of Bradley Cooper's strengths is being more confident than he actually is. And that's the other frame narrative, is that you - your hubris can sometimes bring your downfall. And then people take advantage of that. And I think that's a big part of the entire film. That's the entire grift. All of it is taking advantage of people who don't realize quite that they are being taken advantage of.

HENDERSON: That's the cornerstone of noir.

GATES: Yeah.

HARRIS: Yeah (laughter).

HENDERSON: Pretty much.

HARRIS: Basically, I mean, it is kind of one big sort of old-timey morality tale, like noir is. And I also was getting big "Twilight Zone" vibes. I was like, this also could have been - "Twilight Zone" borrowed from a bunch of different writers and authors, so, like, I could be forgetting about an episode that very closely mirrors this. You don't necessarily know where it's going, but you probably know at least where it's going a little bit. And I like that.

HENDERSON: This is a story about desperation. How far are you willing to go to survive? And I think you pointed out at the beginning that it's kind of a little bit of a commentary about how society treats people who are low on the totem pole. And I think that's something that del Toro was always into, even though for the most part, it would be monsters or something more, you know, supernatural in his movies that he identified with. Here, the whole carnival section seems to work really well for him. He feels more at home there than he does in, you know, Cate Blanchett's, you know, sterile and cold office.

GATES: I was kind of surprised that they leaned more into the austerity of her office and not into - in the book, that whole section, he has, like, a tabernacle, and he has a congregation.

HENDERSON: Right.

GATES: And he, like - he leaves the shows that they're doing at the Copa and has created an entire congregation of people that believe in his spiritualism. And that's such a huge part of America's past that we very rarely tap into in films anymore. Like, and we kind of still have that today. Why not bring that up?

HARRIS: (Laughter).

GATES: There's - it's still happening. I don't know. Maybe that's a whole other movie, I guess.

HARRIS: So in my notes, actually, when I was in the theater, I literally wrote down, he's giving me Joel Osteen vibes.

GATES: Yeah.

HARRIS: And I - like, I can totally see a version of this that really leans into that because it does feel, in a way, super-insular. Like, we have him in the carnival, and then he takes his act to the Copa, but then it's just him and Molly. And then he meets up with Cate Blanchett's character, and, like, that turns into sort of, like, an inner circle. Like, it's a very elite sort of thing. But yeah, I mean, it would have been a vastly different movie had Guillermo de Toro gone that route.

To sort of piggyback off of where this stands within his, like, canon, within his filmography, you know, he does seem to be attracted to these stories about the, quote, unquote, "little people" or the marginalized people. But in this case, like, the focus is more so - yes, we have the geek character. And I guess we should probably specify what a geek is in case people aren't familiar.

GATES: (Laughter).

HARRIS: But, like, the lowest of the low when it comes to the carny world, where these are men who are often addicted to some sort of drugs and are forced to usually wrestle with chickens, brutalize chickens or other animals and are paid in more booze, more drugs, more whatever. But to sort of look at where this movie stands, how do you feel about this? Like, I was not a fan of "Shape Of Water." I'm still annoyed it won best picture. But there's a lot of movies I'm annoyed won best picture.

GATES: (Laughter) Yeah.

HARRIS: But yeah, I'm curious what you all - like, where does this rank for you in terms of del Toro?

HENDERSON: I don't know. This - maybe this is in the middle. I tend to like things like "The Devil's Backbone" and "Pan's Labyrinth" and some of his creepier things. I think him coming into noir, he mentioned that he wanted to make a noir, and he wanted to make horror. I think it's a commendable effort, but I wonder if the movie would've been even better if it just stayed in the carnival. And I saw him trying to make parallels between the carnival and this other world where Bradley Cooper is with Cate Blanchett.

But you see; the movie's most comfortable when the characters from the carnival come back to visit them after their success. When his character was in the room, when you have Willem Dafoe and you have Ron Perlman and Toni Collette, who are these people who were the carny world, the movie kind of relaxes a little bit. The filmmaking feels easier. It feels a little bit more kind of, like, you know, less strained when those characters are on.

GATES: I would agree. I feel like it's at its strongest when it's in the worlds that del Toro is so well-known for. And I think the moments when it tries to be noir is when it feels - felt to me like it was trying to be a noir. And I'm not sure that audiences that are maybe less well-versed in noir would notice. There were a couple of scenes that are just direct citations from other noir, and I was like, OK, I can see the strings here, and I don't like it. But if you hadn't seen those movies, you probably would just be enthralled. So, you know, that's my fault for seeing too many movies, I think.

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GATES: He is a stronger filmmaker when he's really leaning into supernatural elements and how the supernatural is how we express emotions. And the genre pictures are really a place to go deep into humanity and sort of the darker recesses. And I think this film could have gotten there if he just stayed there instead of trying to play in a pool that didn't quite - it's just he didn't quite have it.

HARRIS: Yeah. I think for me, I, again, really loved this movie in spite some of its flaws, and it ranks pretty high for me, upper middle, I would say, of his work, definitely above "Shape Of Water" but maybe below something like "Crimson Peak." That's where I stand on "Nightmare Alley."

And we want to know where you stand on "Nightmare Alley." Find us at facebook.com/pchh and on Twitter at @pchh And that brings us to the end of our show. Thanks to you both, Marya and Odie, for being here. It was awesome, as always, to talk about movies with you.

HENDERSON: Thank you.

GATES: Yes.

HARRIS: And, of course, thank you for listening to POP CULTURE HAPPY HOUR from NPR. We will see you all tomorrow, when we'll be talking about "Being The Ricardos."

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