Help talk:Contents

Small addition

Added a small addition for mobile support as this is a question that is asked all the time. Was reverted - not sure why as people use multiple platform to view Wikipedia. Seems useful. Wikipedia:Don't revert due solely to "no consensus" Thank you!--Moxy 🍁 13:17, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

It is possible to access Wikipedia on multiple platforms. The desktop version of English Wikipedia is located at https://en.wikipedia.org. The mobile version of English Wikipedia is located at https://en.m.wikipedia.org.

Could we got the reverter here pls? Hard to understand whats going on when all we have is edit summaries. Wondering why we should not link to our apps and other ways of viewing Wikipedia in the "read" section as 60 percent of our readers use non-desktop format. Take two!!-Moxy 🍁 17:06, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

I explained in my edit summaries; it was not a revert due to no consensus. If you want further clarification, ask. But the burden is on you to establish consensus for the additions. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 18:52, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

So to be clear here...you don't see an addition to help those looking to access Wikipedia on different official and non-official versions and platforms useful? So we should get the oppnions of others I would image? How is this detrimental?--Moxy 🍁 19:15, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

There is already a link at the bottom of every desktop page to the mobile version of Wikipedia, and a link at the bottom of every mobile page to the desktop version. In most cases, the browser figures it out automatically. I don't see why this is all that necessary, let alone so necessary that it needs to be put on a portal page that is meant to serve mainly as a menu of the help pages rather than a place to provide help directly. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 19:43, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

I believe helping people access our pages is always a good idea. Most people dont see the mini link at the bottom of the page and is why it comes up all the time at the help desks - they wish to change views to our official versions regardless of the default for their device. As for a link to other platform options... this represents a growing percentage of our readers so I believe its very relevant and also a question asked all the time. Many may not like the app or other versions - but still best to let readers decide what is best for them (like how they want to view help pages)--Moxy 🍁 20:16, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

As the most prominent help page on Wikipedia, the bar for inclusion here is higher than on any other help page on the project. Are there a few people unfamiliar with the internet who might want to know how to change the URL to switch between the desktop and mobile version? Sure. But if we added every piece of advice at that level of usefulness, this page would be five times as long as it is and utterly overwhelming for a casual reader. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 01:55, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

As someone who has maintained this pages for many many many years I am fully aware of inclusion criteria. So are YOU ok with the inclusion? Can we add a link to our app and the many other means of viewing Wikipedia along with easy switch links to official version of Wikipedia.--Moxy 🍁 02:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

Rolling in from WP:3O. I think that it might be worthwhile to include if it's a perennial helpdesk subject -- big if true -- and my rule of thumb is that every time someone on a website takes it upon themselves to go through the question-asking process, there are probably a dozen people who couldn't be arsed and just gave up. Using the Internet on a mobile browser is already enough of a drag (maybe I am just old, but it is always awkward for me, especially when I get juggled between "helpful" behaviors like repeatedly defaulting to the view that I don't want) that I think it would probably help more than it'd hurt. I think that for most people, "adding or subtracting .m. to the beginning of a URL makes the whole website be completely different" is a little non-intuitive. { $\mathbb {JPG}$ } 23:45, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

Jacob Gotts, I spend a fair amount of time at the Teahouse, and I don't know of editors asking that question, let alone asking it "all the time". Perhaps some of the Teahouse hosts could give insight on that; to be blunt, given Moxy's reputation, I don't place weight on their assertion alone. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 03:13, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Well, I guess I was smart to say "big if true" then, lol. If there's no basis for the claim, I guess that takes some of the air out of it. I guess I'll restrict myself to saying that I personally find the mobile website a little confusing and, were I not a big galaxy-brained computer lad, I would probably appreciate something about how to switch the versions being in the contents. But I don't have a strong opinion either way. Is there a list somewhere, of commonly suggested things which end up not getting added to this page? { $\mathbb {JPG}$ } 04:24, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

My reputation is based on a decade worth of experience with new editors and my interaction with old timers- . Back to the matter at hand... a simple search of the archives for questions related to mobile access and other platforms can be done by anyone...thus why a link to that information may be useful...as data shows. Will wait a bit see if others have anything to say a before implementing. As for changes to this page..we had a huge talk about 5 years ago and a few of us have watched over the page since then adding and removing things here and there....old format now sits at Help:Menu. Its wonderful Sdkb discovered the page a few months ago and made some changes, but not sure they have our mobile readers or people with disabilities in-mind in-general Introduction to Web Accessibility--Moxy 🍁 04:48, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

From 2013 to 2019, the percentage of web traffic by mobile devices went from 16.2 to 53.3, and is still climbing. Therefore, it is highly appropriate to include mobile support on Wikipedia's main help page. (Here's the source of the statistic).    — The Transhumanist   09:31, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

A very useful tip that is not intuitive in the least, is that the mobile version of Wikipedia is extremely useful on desktops/laptops/notepads for showing articles without the side menu, using the entire width of the screen. If we don't post this front and center, so that users can easily find this information, they could go their whole lives without ever learning about it. I've added this tidbit to the edit you've been discussing above. Please keep the mobile version info on the main help page, as it benefits mobile and desktop users alike. Thank you. (By the way, on desktops/laptops/notepads, zooming in on the regular version very annoyingly enlarges the menu sidebar, thereby reducing the proportion of the screen devoted to the article. Using the mobile version handily avoids this problem).    — The Transhumanist   09:59, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

I see that Moxy has recruited you to this discussion (along with attempting with several others). No one is disputing that mobile users are prevalent. But support for mobile should be automatic, not something that requires instruction, and 99% of the time this is already the case. Your "useful tip" would be a fine addition to the tip of the day, but it is not remotely appropriate for this page, since only a few people are going to want to intentionally use mobile on desktop, and suggesting users do so is a tiny band-aid on the actual problem of getting the desktop version to work properly.

Again, I need to emphasize that the proposed addition is wildly out of proportion with the level of detail this page is supposed to provide. For example, everything about COI is summed up in the single sentence If you are affiliated with the article subject, please see our conflict of interest guideline., and the MOS and Wiki markup are put together into the sentence The Simplified Manual of Style and Cheatsheet can remind you of basic wiki markup. Sticking to this broad level of overview requires leaving out information that would be considered very important in any other context, such as that paid editors must disclose. By contrast, you're proposing adding an entire paragraph, longer even than the paragraph on searching, for the minority of users who want to use the mobile or desktop versions in non-standard ways. That's classic WP:CREEP.

One user plus one recruited friend versus one neutral and one opposed is not sufficient to establish consensus for making such a major change to such a high-level page, so I will revert to the status quo. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 17:55, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Yes asked those that edit thirs page to come and review your actions. Not sure what more could be said. Will restore main points. This discrimination is beyond the pale.--Moxy 🍁 18:20, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

I think it might be more productive if you guys made a WP:RFC or posted on WP:DRN instead of continuing to revert each other. { $\mathbb {JPG}$ } 20:22, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Jacob Gotts, done below. As a process matter, I would ask that the WP:STATUSQUO be restored while the RfC is taking place. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 21:06, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

RfC

Should we add the following additions to this page?

1. At the bottom of the "Read or find an article" section:

   It is possible to access Wikipedia on multiple platforms. The desktop version of English Wikipedia is located at https://en.wikipedia.org. The mobile version of English Wikipedia is located at https://en.m.wikipedia.org (also very useful on desktop and laptop computers, to display articles in large print across the entire width of the screen without the side menu, making them much easier to read).

2. At the bottom of the page:

   Mobile version of Help talk:Contents - Desktop version of Help talk:Contents

{{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 20:41, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

• No to 1, strong no to 2. It's important first of all to understand the context of this page. This is the main portal to the help namespace, and the only help page linked from the left sidebar. The bar for inclusion here is higher than at any other help page on Wikipedia, and information that would be considered important elsewhere is often left out here so that the page can remain a concise directory with links to the most important help pages, rather than becoming bloated with specific advice for niche circumstances through WP:CREEP.

Let's consider the proposal within that context. Mobile access to Wikipedia is certainly important, but browsers figure it out automatically 99% of the time, and for anyone who wants to switch to the other version, there is already a link to the mobile version at the bottom of every desktop page and vice versa. That's basically the second part of the proposal, only intelligent enough to not offer to switch to the version the user is already on. As for the first part, Help:Mobile access should be linked from the main pages the read/find section sends readers to, WP:About and WP:FAQ/Readers; it shouldn't be elevated as a primary link akin to those pages. And it certainly shouldn't have an entire paragraph longer even than the paragraph for searching. The tip in the parenthetical would be fine at the mobile access page, but especially given that it's a band-aid solution to a larger problem of desktop readability, it doesn't merit a sentence at a location this ultra-prominent.

Pages inevitably trend toward creep, and it's easier if we take a hard stance now than if we allow it to grow, handing the problem to future pruners.{{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 20:41, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

As a process matter, I will add that it has been inappropriate for Moxy to repeatedly[1][2][3] add the proposed text without consensus to do so, and that the WP:STATUSQUO should be restored until such consensus is established. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 21:02, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

• 1b yes to original proposal not the undiscussed wording above.

1. b At the bottom of the "Read or find an article" section:

   It is possible to access Wikipedia on multiple platforms. The desktop version of English Wikipedia is located at https://en.wikipedia.org. The mobile version of English Wikipedia is located at https://en.m.wikipedia.org

Good information for those who are having problems accessing Wikipedia by way of format, platform or disability. Exactly the kind of help you would expect to see on the main help page.... how best to access the website despite what software or device you have. I would consider it much more important to our readers than "editing tip of the day" or our two list of links to other list of links. To be honest can't believe this information was over looked here for so long. Also very surprised to see such a fuss about it by one editor. 2 no strong opinion...simply a link of convince that might be useful to those having trouble viewing the page in question in their default format. --Moxy 🍁 21:13, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

• • @Moxy: Some observations and clarifying questions; I hope they help: 1) the link "access Wikipedia on multiple platforms" doesn't cover multiple platforms; that is, that link doesn't lead to what it says it leads to, which is confusing. Where do they find the info on the rest of the multiple platforms, and how many other platforms are there? 2) Does there need to be a link to the default (desktop) view? What does it look like from a mobile device? Don't desktop users already see that view? If so, why is a link needed? 3) How come there is a link to the desktop view but not to a page explaining that view as there is with mobile? There's a mobile format help page, but no desktop format help page. I look forward to your replies.    — The Transhumanist   22:15, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

1)Page covers how to access the site from differ platforms... Android, iOS, Opera Mini, tablets, Windows, etc (many in the form of aplications) with a link to more software and has information for screen readers. 2)Desktop view is not the default for 60 percent of our readers those on mobile devices. 3)No link to desktop help in this one sentence because all the other links to help pages on this page cover desktop view.... What is happening is we are FINALLY added a link to mobile view help.--Moxy 🍁 23:43, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

• Support 1b , seems a reasonable addition, drawing attention between the two views is important I feel, may confuse many users. Just because we're all aware of this doesn't mean average readers are. --Jules (Mrjulesd) 08:26, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

  I have c/e to

  It is possible to access Wikipedia on multiple platforms. English Wikipedia has a desktop view at https://en.wikipedia.org and mobile view at https://en.m.wikipedia.org

  . --Jules (Mrjulesd) 08:55, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

• Support 1b , reasonable compromise. The two views being so different, it is important someone seeing one view be aware that the other exists.--Astral Leap (talk) 09:51, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

  Astral Leap and Mrjulesd, the "seems reasonable" !votes are the ones I was afraid of. RfCs by their nature are designed to remove a question from its context, and placed in the context of a generic help page, the sentence would be much more fitting than it is here. I'm not sure what else I can add to what I wrote above, but I hope you and others here look at the question within its full context. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 17:42, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

  Well I have read your comments about bloat and creep. Well RfCs are useful are ideal in situations like these; then there is a natural limitation to bloat, as the number of RfCs held is usually quite low. Nothing was wrong in your view to remove it; except that others might believe that the "cost" (in terms of complexity) is less important than the potential benefits of the explanation. I believe that understanding the different access views is vitally important, and may be overlooked by many readers. --Jules (Mrjulesd) 18:02, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

  I think mentioning the two views are important, as they are so very different. Many mobile Wikipedia editors switch to the desktop view because the mobile one doesn't allow the same functionality, and someone who is only editing on mobile may be unaware of this.--Astral Leap (talk) 11:40, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

  @Astral Leap: Cool, that sounds like useful information. How does a mobile user normally switch from mobile view to desktop view? Where do they usually learn this?    — The Transhumanist   22:21, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

  At the bottom of every page there is a toggle to change views....however it's so small and placeed with things so unrelated to be unseen by most.--Moxy 🍁 23:54, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

  If the notice is too small, the solution would be to make it bigger, not to duplicate it at the bottom this page. Tackle the underlying problem, rather than creating an inferior fix that applies to only a single page. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 06:59, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

  editing for this page we should be considering mainly readers. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:25, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

  Agree.... I've always thought that this should be a standard format page. Leading readers to unfamiliar formats with no navigational help impedes on the usefulness of page. Most when confronted with an unconventional page will simply give up on it instantly..... thinking they hit the backside of Wikipedia that's all different and requires even more/different code learning.--Moxy 🍁 00:28, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

  @The Transhumanist: I suspect most figure this out via editing on a desktop device, and seeing the actual different view, and then looking for a toggle (which does appear on every Wikipedia page). How a mobile-only user would figure this out, I am left guessing, which why a mention in the help would be useful.--Astral Leap (talk) 09:03, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

Discussion

RFC should be based on what was reverted a few times and what was talked about above.

It is possible to access Wikipedia on multiple platforms. The desktop version of English Wikipedia is located at https://en.wikipedia.org. The mobile version of English Wikipedia is located at https://en.m.wikipedia.org.

Best to be honest over trying to game the system in this manner. I also agree the ONE edit that is being proposed is to wordy.--Moxy 🍁 21:33, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

I included The Transhumanist's proposed parenthetical for completeness, but if you'd prefer to add part 1 but just without the parenthetical, you're welcome to state so in your !vote. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 21:36, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Not sure the proposal should include something that was not talked about over what all but you saw as a valid addition. What you're proposing is not what was proposed above. I consider it gaming as you have done this type of thing before. But I believe the ORIGINAL addition holds merit so let's see what happens.--Moxy 🍁 21:42, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

"not talked about" is plainly inaccurate. The Transhumanist brought up their parenthetical above, as anyone can see, and also added it briefly to the page itself as part of the earlier back-and-forth. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:00, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

That addition in its wording to the page was not talked about. To look somewhat honest you should place 1A and 1B as options. Not sure the one person who is opposed to any addition should be the one proposing what addition to make. Very suspect at face value.--Moxy 🍁 22:25, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

The text I inserted was just a suggestion. It got reverted per WP:BRD. No big deal. The edit didn't stick. Some do, some don't. That's fine with me.    — The Transhumanist   19:11, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 September 2020

Three lines from the bottom of the of the second paragraph is a statement in quotes: "There's (sic) no packages of interest going there". "sic" is in parens rather than in brackets. Quote should read "There's [sic] no packages of interest going there". Fred Rotwang (talk) 18:42, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

@Fred Rotwang:  Done, assuming you were asking for Shooting of Breonna Taylor. In the future, please make requests at the WP:Teahouse, or the page's talk page rather than this talk page, which is for the Wikipedia contents page itself (see the notice at the top). {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 19:07, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 February 2021

2600:1700:3BD2:8C0F:C88F:5E12:73B3:AFF9 (talk) 16:38, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Elliot321 (talk | contribs) 16:52, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

HiEma--or (talk) 16:55, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Moved to Wikipedia:Teahouse § Premature deaths

 – {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 21:47, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 November 2021

Rana Ayyub pointed out Islamophobic elements in Sooryavanshi. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/11/15/why-an-indian-films-success-box-office-should-worry-us-all), Riz Ahmed and Arif Alvi also criticized the film.(https://tribune.com.pk/story/2329672/riz-ahmed-disgusted-arif-alvi-disappointed-by-islamophobic-indian-film-sooryavanshi) 103.58.154.249 (talk) 10:53, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: this is the talk page for discussing improvements to the page Help:Contents. Please make your request at the talk page for the article concerned. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:03, 17 November 2021 (UTC)