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September 3

the good as heretical constraint

There is a view that principles of ethics can be derived without divine revelation, because the nature of good and evil is largely self-evident. And there is a view that that idea is heretical, because it supposes that God's ability to define the good is constrained. These summaries are naturally compressed, but I think not too compressed to ask the question: Is there a name for either of these doctrines? --Tamfang (talk) 02:51, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Virtue ethics versus Divine command theory? 2601:648:8202:350:0:0:0:2B99 (talk) 03:15, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Tamfang -- if you're referring to an idea that good and evil are two equal principles, and that God is no more powerful than Satan (or whatever you call the master of evil), then that's similar to ancient dualistic religions. If you're referring to an idea that pure scientific knowledge and experiment could ever by itself determine what is morally good and bad, then that's the Is-ought problem... AnonMoos (talk) 05:53, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

I don't see where you found Manichaean dualism in the question, but I am no longer surprised at being misunderstood. --Tamfang (talk) 01:05, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

You were referring to restrictions on the power of God, and the main ideas that I know of about that are "Could God create a rock so heavy that he couldn't lift it?" type late-night dorm-room bullshitting, and ancient Persian influenced dualistic religions... AnonMoos (talk) 07:02, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

See also Natural morality.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:19, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Euthyphro dilemma seems to be the name of the debate. That article says that the first point of view "goes by a variety of names, including intellectualism, rationalism, realism, naturalism, and objectivism", to which I might add moral realism and humanism. The "second horn of the dilemma" is probably best described as divine command theory, as the IP-monikered editor above mentioned. (Two of the links in that list are actually easter eggs, in the article, so they really go to natural law and moral universalism.)  Card Zero  (talk) 12:35, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Euthyphro is the best answer I'm likely to get. Thanks. --Tamfang (talk) 01:09, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Any active discussion groups on English literature, literary theory etc.?

Wonder if there is any active groups involving researchers and teachers who can answer queries and explain things to noobs on any platform like Facebook, Telegram or somewhere on the web? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:201:f00a:20c6:6995:6b37:559e:27a8 (talk • contribs)

The subreddit /r/AskLiteraryStudies/ appears to be active.  Card Zero  (talk) 12:45, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure there are multiple stackexchange sites on those topics too. 2601:648:8202:350:0:0:0:2B99 (talk) 18:41, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Spanish Royal Guard

Please, can someone find the complete list of commanders from 1504 to now, and edit them on the page? Thank you very much! --79.35.154.3 15:01, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

September 4

Zhu Cilang

What happened to Zhu Cilang, the son of the Chongzhen Emperor, during the Transition from Ming to Qing? How did he die? -- 02:49, 4 September 2021 67.170.133.177

What is the best Bible book available?

What would be the best book available dealing with the question of the actual meaning and authenticity of the events referred to in the Bible, meeting the following criteria (in descending order of priority):

• main objective: reconstructing the historical truth as far as possible, implying:
  • a factual, sober, rational stance as unbiased / neutral as can be, not requiring religious faith by the reader
  • an empirical–historical approach, i. e. with strong focus on verifiable archaeological or other reliable extrabiblical sources
  • a strictly historical, chronological approach (i. e., for instance, no retrospective interpretation of events from the Old Testament in the light of the New Testament)
• the best possible reputation of the work itself and/or its authors (ideally several luminaries) in terms of the broadest possible recognition and consensus among the international academic community of the relevant evidence-based (!) sciences (such as archaeology, religious studies, ancient Near East studies, Egyptology / Assyriology etc.)
• as up-to-date as possible
• as concise and comprehensible as possible, but as sophisticated (meaning complex) as necessary (it needn't be extremely detailed)

In fact, it wouldn't even have to cover the whole (Christian) bible as such – my main field of interest is actually approaching the best-documented theories about the truth of

• the events in the Second Book of Moses (Exodus), and
• the life of Jesus – including the question what most probably mobilized his followers after his death.

However, as I seem to be looking for something like the "Holy Grail" of a [historical-critical] bible introduction, I would also be okay with two books if necessary. (As German is my mother tongue, German would be ideal, but I guess my understanding of English is more or less reasonable – so this is a secondary criterion only to consider in case all the requirements above are fully met – but I guess the best of the best will be in English, and that would do totally fine as well!) Hoping for your kind, profound advice--Hildeoc (talk) 08:28, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

I have some uninvolved (being Wiccan) interest in this subject, and have various books dealing with particular aspects of this very large and hotly disputed topic, but I can't think of one (or two) that really deal with the whole issue comprehensively. I'm sure you've already read our article Historicity of the Bible.

Others will have suggestions, but the UsefulCharts YouTube channel has recently made a series of 4 "Who Wrote the Bible" videos which deal with this topic and which I found useful: Episode 1 is here. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.0.2 (talk) 13:15, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

As a German, you're in luck! German proficiency is almost necessary in this field, since the Germans are so prominent in it. You will have access to many of the latest papers. But you're not going to find one book about the whole bible that's academically rigorous and current. There are good books on early Christianity (I haven't heard of any good ones on Exodus in particular but there might be one meeting your criteria.) One of the best places to ask for these book recommendations is Reddit's r/academicbiblical. Their basic stance on scholarly honesty/legitimacy is the same as yours. I would also ask them to point you to a third forum where people would know about German-language books, if they don't know any. Temerarius (talk) 19:22, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

@Hildeoc: Well, it depends. The New Jerome Biblical Commentary of 1990 is a superb work of Catholic biblical exegesis of the entire Bible. A new, revised, version of the Commentary will be published in 2022 and it will be called The Jerome Biblical Commentary for the 21st Century.

If you want to go on the specific, I suggest you these books: OLD TESTAMENT

• Who Were the Early Israelites and Where Did They Come from? of William G. Dever
• Has Archeology Buried the Bible? of William G. Dever (the title is a provocation, but the book is not provocative at all)

These works are only in English and not in German, unfortunately

NEW TESTAMENT On Jesus

• The Birth of the Messiah of Raymond E. Brown
• The Death of the Messiah of Raymond E. Brown
• A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the Historical Jesus by John P. Meier
  • Volume 1: The roots of the problem and the person
  • Volume 2: Mentor, Message and Miracles
  • Volume 3: Companions and Competitors
  • Volume 4: Law and Love

On Paul the Apostle

• I don't have a "best book" about Paul, but I intend to read the works of Joseph Fitzmyer and Jerome Murphy-O'Connor.

On Saint Peter

• Again, I don't have a "best book", but I intend to read the works of Rudolf Pesch about him.

Most of the scholars I pointed out here are Roman Catholics, but are widely appreciated by non-Catholic scholars as well.-Karma1998 (talk) 12:35, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Doris Webster, author, 1885-1967

What do we know about Doris Webster, co-author of Consider the Consequences! (1930)? We have an article about her co-author, Mary Alden Hopkins, with whom she wrote several books. I can find a number of these books, and her solo works, listed online, but no biographical information, other than that, according to this (paywalled) article she was the wife of Samuel C. Webster, with whom she collaborated on the novel Uncle James' Shoes, was a director of the Rider Press, and of the Cumulative Digest Corporation (whatever that was). OCLC has her dates as 1885-1967. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:37, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

The husband may be Samuel Charles Webster, son of Charles Luther Webster, in which case, Doris was née Webb. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:48, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

confirmed via [1]. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:00, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

According to the ISFDB, a Doris Webb wrote two reviews of Oz books by L. Frank Baum in 1914 and 1915, which were reprinted in the (rather well-produced) fanzine The Baum Bugle in its Autumn 2014 and Winter 2015 issues. Hope this helps! {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.0.2 (talk) 13:28, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Thank you. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:04, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Also https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Webb-3 and (more reliable) sources quoted there. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:04, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

"Wooden goods" might be a misreading of "woollen goods". AnonMoos (talk) 16:06, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Do you have any specific reason to suspect a misreading? (And, given the American context, if a misreading, then more likely of "woolen".)  --Lambiam 07:28, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Just that I remember having seen the phrase "wool(l)en goods" a number of times, but not the other one... AnonMoos (talk) 06:57, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Is there any site that allow me to see the market cap of coin X at coin Y?

Is there any site that allow me to see the market cap of coin X at coin Y?

Most sites show only the market cap of coin X in BTC or a fiat currency (many allow only BTC and dollars), is there any sites that allow you to compare with market cap of lets say NXT (or any other coin)?191.250.232.243 (talk) 18:16, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

If you're meaning the exchange rate between two cryptocurrencies, then WolframAlpha has some of them, but not Bitcoin Next. For example for WolframAlpha indicates that at somepoint on 4 Sept 2021, 1 Bitcoin would by 13.12 Ethers. LongHairedFop (talk) 12:34, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Ethnicity statistics for American Library Association (ALA) Council

What are the ethnicity statistics for all members of the American Library Association Council as of 2021? Note, I am not referring to members of the American Library Association (ALA) as a whole, but members of the ALA Council specifically. -- 18:41, 4 September 2021 12.27.66.4

I don't know, but it's likely that, for example, the ALA affiliate the Black Caucus of the American Library Association could tell you if you contact them – their wbsite is linked in their article's infobox.

If not them, perhaps one of the other relevent affiliates listed at American Library Association#Affiliates could do so.

This is of course assuming that the ALA themselves aren't forthcoming with the information. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.0.2 (talk) 19:21, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Precolonial confederations like the Iroquois Haudenosaunee on other continents?

Not finding much of anything at List of confederations. I'm looking for a confederation of half a dozen or so peoples, speaking different (though possibly related) languages, rather than a tribal confederation within a single nation, or a union of just two nations. Somewhere other than North America or Europe, unless maybe for Europe it's pre-Roman. Any ideas? — kwami (talk) 18:49, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

How about the Sea Peoples? Or if they're too mysterious for you, perhaps the Rus' people?  Card Zero  (talk) 22:01, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Good ideas, but this is for a naming proposal, so I need to know what their languages were, and those need to be reasonably well attested. — kwami (talk) 01:30, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

What is this naming proposal about? Should the confederation be defined by the languages of the participating peoples? The Delian League was one of several military alliances of Ancient Greek city-states, all speaking different dialects of Ancient Greek. A later but still pre-Roman example is the League of Corinth.  --Lambiam 07:16, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

It's kind of a weird project. They'd be names taken from the same word in each of the languages, so the languages would need to be reasonably distinctive. The Iroquoian languages are distinct enough that they'd work (though barely in a few cases), but I'm trying to think of other possibilities. I know I said maybe pre-Roman Europe, but I should avoid Greek, as it's part of our classical tradition, and anyway I suspect that individual words in Doric, Attic, Aeolic and Ionic wouldn't be that far apart. I should probably also avoid confederations created for the purpose of conquest and subjugation, like the Huns (not that we know which languages the Huns spoke). — kwami (talk) 08:21, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

The Golden Horde? It was not created for the purpose of conquest but resulted from the division of Genghis Khan's Mongol Empire, and we have a better idea of the range of languages of the involved tribes.  --Lambiam 22:23, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Is it pretty much just Mongol and Kipchak? I'd need half a dozen languages. Also, it's the result of disintegration rather than unification. — kwami (talk) 09:12, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

I keep thinking of the Hanse, but you specified pre-Roman. Oh, there's Category:Former confederations.  Card Zero  (talk)

The Hanse is quite a good idea, apart from being European and being cities rather than nations that joined together. I don't see anything else in the category where peoples speaking more than just a language or two came together in near-equality to build something greater, in a union that was more than just a temporary alliance. — kwami (talk) 08:53, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

• Does the Muisca Confederation fit your purposes? --Jayron32 17:53, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

September 5

Funding anti-doping agencies

How does the World Anti-Doping Agency, the United States Anti-Doping Agency, and many anti-doping agencies all over the world operate? Do they accept financial contributions?2603:7000:8101:58A1:ECA9:D03A:3BE6:B0B2 (talk) 01:13, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Funding is discussed in the articles you linked. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:28, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

No, there wasn't anything about how the aforementioned agencies are funded.2603:7000:8101:58A1:4154:50D3:D0E1:D2C4 (talk) 01:17, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

For the USA "it is partly funded by the Office of National Drug Control Policy (ONDCP), with its remaining budget generated from contracts for anti-doping services with sport organizations, most notably the United States Olympic Committee (USOC)". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:50, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

But what about the World Anti-Doping Agency, and the rest of the other anti-doping agencies all over the world?2603:7000:8101:58A1:C86C:E0C5:3812:D28A (talk) 13:23, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Very likely to be membership fees. DOR (HK) (talk) 00:47, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Or, again in the article, "Initially funded by the International Olympic Committee, WADA receives half of its budgetary requirements from them, with the other half coming from various national governments." Maybe the OP is allergic to reading the actual articles. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:53, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Timing question here

Hi, this article says Influenza vaccine ``The intradermal vaccine was not available during the 2018–2019 and 2019–2020 influenza seasons.[14][20][21][22]`` -- why not?

Posted question at talk page, as linked in the heading above.

I checked sources, but they're too confusing to see the answer to this.

Thanks --Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 11:06, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Hi Gryllida, [14] does not contain the word “intradermal”. [20] is a dead link. [21] does not contain the word “intradermal”. [22] instructs not to administer the class of “Influenza Virus Vaccine Inactivated” intradermally, without mention of specific seasons. So it doesn’t look as if those sources support the sentence and so it should come out of the article. (Taking the lack of a reference to an intradermal option to mean there was no intradermal vaccine available is original research.)

What you’d need for Wikipedia to make a statement about the general availability of intradermal seasonal flu vaccines in a particular season (worldwide or in a particular country) is a news article that makes the claim. I haven’t had any luck finding one, but perhaps another volunteer here can. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 16:54, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Tracking down a New York World article

{crossposted from WP:REX) I'm looking for an article from 1865 in the New York World. the secondary source I have a picture of gives some clues to the article: A reporter visited the Pompey stone at the Albany Institute of History and Art with a "Dr. O'Callaghan" (presumably Edmund Bailey O'Callaghan), Henry C. Murphy, and a James Hall. It includes the quote "It was found very carefully put away in a glass case and covered with a dust that indicated that for some years, at least, its quiet had not been disturbed." and "It must be remembered that this stone was found when there was no pecuniary inducement for the forging of such relics." That's all I know, I no longer have the secondary source. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Can anyone track this article down? Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 12:39, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

It might have been just called "The World" at that period (pre 1881)? If this is it [2], Library of Congress and New York Public Library have it in bound volumes and microfilm, but I can't find a digitized version. Some of the volunteers here have access to newspaper databases so fingers crossed you do get an answer. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 18:55, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Main picture of Alan Turing

Hi,

Why the main picture for Alan Turing's article is him being only 16 years old? He didn't accomplish anything important at that age. I think it would be more relevant to use a picture of him in his 30s (during WW2) or before he died at age 41. What do you think? Ericdec85 (talk) 15:20, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

We haven't got a later picture that we can use. DuncanHill (talk) 15:39, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

We can only use fair use when there's no available picture. Since there is one, that doesn't apply. Blythwood (talk) 00:26, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Supposedly he understood Einstein's theories at that age, which seems like an accomplishment. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:48, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

His appearence didn't actually change very much over the next 25 years. Compare that photo to the portrait on the new £50 note. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.209.121.112 (talk) 04:11, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

The image page shows that the source is a website called turingarchive.org. The licensing section states that the photo is in the public domain. Is there really no later photo on that website which is also public domain? --Viennese Waltz 08:08, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

The photos held in that archive are listed here. Several are not scanned (and therefore not visible). Of those that are, the only ones clearly superior are a set of eight passport-sized head and shoulder shots, possibly dating to around 1947, about which the site notes:

"Copyright: Reasonable attempts have been made to contact the copyright owner of this document. If you wish to disuss the inclusion of this document on this site, please contact the Archivist at King's College, Cambridge."

This suggests to me that they would not be usable by Wikipedia, but I'm not an expert. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.209.121.112 (talk) 01:16, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

September 6

Alternate wording for 'forced religious conversions'

Greetings,

Just I engaging in conversation @ one of concern article draft talk page.

Commonly used wording is 'Forced conversion' still if one takes nuanced view of conversion for example like the ones mentioned in this New York Times it is difficult to categories them in literal 'forced' ones but those are not straightforward conversions under theological convictions and conscience either. Some pressures are direct but many underlying pressures are indirect underplay, then there would be some allurements too involved, some prodding mixed with some fair some unfair pressures etc. Phenomena is complex enough to facilitate plausible deniability about the unfair conditions which lead to such conversions. Hence whether a better word or phrase in place 'forced' (without succumbing to original research) which may take into account such complex phenomena into account can be suggested?

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 06:53, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Compulsory conversion? 2602:24A:DE47:B8E0:1B43:29FD:A863:33CA (talk) 19:46, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Hmm. Compel is a synonym for force, so that means almost exactly the same thing - except a person can experience a compulsion which comes from within, and carry out a compulsive act as a result. How about "compulsive conversion"? Or is that getting too original? Has to be something idiomatic I guess. Oh, another possibility: coercive conversion.  Card Zero  (talk) 00:44, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Coercive, unwilling, unnecessary (?) …. DOR (HK) (talk) 00:50, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

I am taking note suggestions being received here and later will link to talk page discussion. Thanks for various inputs and warm regards Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 10:07, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

There is some usage of the term 'conversion pressure', which would seem to be wider in scope than 'forced conversion'. --Amble (talk) 19:16, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Satan is a good angel?

this is obviously not what most Abrahamic religions believe..however, if Satan is a good angel, what is the Jewish religious view..is it ok to speak with him, ask for advice?.after all, angels spoke with many of the old Israelite patriarchs.. Gfigs (talk) 07:15, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

In Biblical passages where Satan is not described as evil his job appears to be to test and trick people. If this is the case any advice you got would not necessarily be straight forward "good" advice, whatever the motive. -- Q Chris (talk) 07:51, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

that seems dishonest..even possibly evil?. is it fair to call God such things. eg an earthquake for example? Gfigs (talk) 08:40, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

I'm not a Christian or a Jew, but from my view if taken literally the story of Job does make God sound dishonest and evil. -- Q Chris (talk) 08:44, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

thanks.. Gfigs (talk) 09:08, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

what about the natural world..disease, old age, natural disasters..what is the Jewish religious belief?. is man to blame, an angel, or the "creator"?. Gfigs (talk) 09:02, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

the original sin?.who was the serpent, and how was he involved?. Gfigs (talk) 09:21, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Whereas I can't answer your specific question Problem of evil may be of interest to you. -- Q Chris (talk) 09:47, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

thank you.. Gfigs (talk) 10:22, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

it might be that in Judaism the serpent was the yetzer hara (evil inclination)..although it's not clear whether Adam and Eve were created with this, and why.possibly to test their obedience?.the verses in Job seem to speak of a "destroying" angel?.however i would like to still be able to speak with him, in hope that he don't arrange an incident such as Bathsheba..(or worse)..and blame me?.Gfigs (talk) 10:43, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

It's my opinion that the Eden snake is just a snake. The text doesn't tell us much else about it. Snakes had some kind of power, though. There were the snake figures that Moses put up and later Hezekiah torn them down, IIRC. Who knows if there's any connection with Genesis. But I can promise you that you don't have to worry at all about these forces coming down to mess with you personally. Ask any religious expert whose opinion you can trust, and they'll tell you the same. Temerarius (talk) 22:54, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

As far as I am aware, the association between the Serpent in Eden and Satan was first made in Revelation, which would have been written hundreds of years after the first story was originally written down (and about 4000 years after the events supposedly happened). So I'm inclined to agree with you: the snake is just a snake, and the Eden story was likely intended as a "just so story" to explain why life is hard and snakes don't have legs. Iapetus (talk) 10:05, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

thanks Temerarius, interesting thoughts..yes i wonder who the serpent was, and what the intended meaning of this story might have been when Genesis was written?. Gfigs (talk) 23:16, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

One angel always tells the truth, the other always lies; you may ask one question —Tamfang (talk) 01:15, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

"How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:50, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

according to the Christian Greek Scriptures, Satan is the "father of the lie"..why does he hardly appear in the Hebrew Scriptures?.. Gfigs (talk) 02:00, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

the Latter Day Saints (KJV) Bible footnote to 2 Samuel 24:1 says : "Apparently something is missing, and “Satan” should be the antecedent of “he.”..it refers to a parallel verse in 1 Chronicles 21:1 Gfigs (talk) 02:20, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

If you're looking for a "good" Satan, or at least not necessarily an "evil" Satan, you could try reading Mark Twain's book, The Mysterious Stranger. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:52, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

thanks, will check this out.. Gfigs (talk) 07:10, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

if God destroyed Sodom & Gomorrah, it's possible that Naftali Bennett will destroy the Israeli LGBT Association?. Gfigs (talk) 07:31, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Now you drift away from where we can point you to reliable sources. We can’t predict the future. Blueboar (talk) 13:16, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Gay stuff isn't the reason Sodom and Gomorrah were punished. Temerarius (talk) 18:51, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

@Temerarius:, what do you mean? Gfigs (talk) 22:10, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Sodom and Gomorrah were punished for various sins. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:11, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Unlike God, Bennett will eventually have to stand for re-election. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:47, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

and will also have to work with the Alternate PM of Israel former TV Presenter Yair Lapid.. Gfigs (talk) 14:14, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

I'm confused, OP: do you want to discuss the original question of this thread or is this just a springboard to provide context to talk about Israeli/contemporary Jewish politics? If the latter, please bear in mind WP:NOTAFORUM: we aren't here to engage in open ended discussion, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who is a little concerned about your ultimate end here after the Soddom and Gomorrah = LGBT comment in particular. Our remit really only let's us provide answers in the form of sources, or if the discussion stays focused on a factual inquiry, information that helps contextualize your question. That said, I will AGF and assume that your original question remains the topic you are most interested in exploring, and I'll add another wrinkle that you may find interesting: it does not concern just Jewish interpretations of Satan's status as a source of revelation, but it does concern the other part of your question: Satan's role in theodicy:

You started your question by stating that Abrahamic religions do not regard Satan as a benign figure. While this is certainly true as a generalization that holds for the vast majority of contemporary Christians, it is not an entirely universal truism, especially if we go back some time. Christianity developed not just from a syncretic fusion with other Abrahamic religions, but other faiths as well, and in the first few centuries of it's existence one of the religious traditions that most repeatedly cross-pollinated with Christianity (and indeed, Judaism as well) was Gnosticism. From Gnosticism, certain branches of Christianity inherited the concept of the demiurge, a being who is omnipotent to the extent of having complete control over all physical existence, but who stands between humans and true gnosis (personal understanding and revelation) of the actual supreme God, who stands outside the physical world and cannot be understood through any device or means derived from that world. And Satan often became the figure identified as the demiurge in this hybrid cosmogony.

As with gnosticism in general, views among Gnostic Christians and Jews varied with regard to Satan/the demiurge's status as the source of evil: some theological frameworks feature him as the ultimate corruption--a gaoler who keeps all of humanity and every hope of salvation in the prison of the physical world, which is no less catastrophic an evil for the fact that he has every power over it that is traditionally attributed to God. Some of these schools go further to suggest that the entity traditional worshiped as the God of the Judaism and the source of revelation and dogma for the Abrahamic religions is in fact Satan. Other doctrines viewed him as essentially as much trapped by the situation as any mortal: Satan believes he is God, but is as confused and misled by his limitations as anyone; this conception of the demiurge was also not unheard of in ancient gnosticism generally. Still other traditions held that Satan as the 'God of the World' might even be a loving and benevolent demiurge, but that makes him all the more a calamity, because he is still standing between humankind and true connection with the real God, who is the only possible escape from the physical world, which can only ultimately trap every soul in misery.

These fusional beliefs remained a significant counterpoint in Christian theology for about its first millennia and a half, but began to fade around the 15th century from a combination of persecution (see, for example Cathars) and historical accident. But they remain a part of the fabric of the Abrahamic religions--although it is worth noting that unlike Christianity where the bidirectional relationship is more or less considered established fact, the question of interplay between Gnosticism and Judaism is somewhat more controversial when it comes to the details. I can tell you that, despite the fact that it was the Catholic church that (in large part) left the Gnostic Christian denominations reeling, I've known Catholics who consider Satan the God of the physical world and view him as a mostly blameless part of the process of faith--a gatekeeper, if you will, in the path of redemption. Needless to say, this view diverges significantly from mainstream Christian dogma in most of the world (to the point where I think most Christians probably go a lifetime without ever becoming familiar with these traditions), but these views have managed to avoid complete annihilation by somehow taking root in branches of some of the same religions which sought to expunge it by the sword: a very peculiar (if not entirely novel) arrangement. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 06:05, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

@Snow Rise:, bear in mind that the word "satan" is a Hebrew common noun found in the Bible, meaning "adversary"..I don't really know how it became a personal name? I think the Hebrew Bibles definition of sexual immorality, is reason why the LGBT question in Israel is relevant..if Satan is a good angel employed by God to test loyal Jews, then there is proof he is doing so with sexual immorality in Tel Aviv..suffice to cite Deputy mayor of Tel Aviv Chen Arieli..now if he is an evil angel, as per Christian and Islamic belief, then there is going to be lot of extra news on TV, Facebook, Twitter, that is going to filter through onto Wikipedia..this is not really covered in books on theology, and probably wasn't a good question to ask here..so am withdrawing this question now, thanks for everyones participation..have a good day.. Gfigs (talk) 22:06, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

I hope we helped a little bit. I didn't see your earlier @ to me, you can message me if you want me to point you to some experts on the S&G question. Temerarius (talk) 23:26, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

A spoon down the throat

In Ken Loach's film Black Jack a character survives hanging by lodging a bent spoon in his windpipe, thereby defeating the strangulation effect of the noose. Is there any evidence that anyone actually tried this, and if so did it work? --Viennese Waltz 08:16, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

• It sounds very unlikely. In the 1700's they weren't yet using the "long drop" where the condemned's neck was broken (spoon or no spoon), but even with a short drop it isn't necessarily constriction of the windpipe that kills you - the rope also constricts the blood vessels leading to the brain, that will kill you too Chuntuk (talk) 10:19, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Agreed. In Judo, there's a distinction between choking (compressing the windpipe to cause asphyxia) and strangling (compressing the arteries in the neck to cut-off the blood supply to the brain). Our chokehold article has more detail. While having a spoon in your windpipe might conceivably help with the first, it couldn't possibly prevent the second. Alansplodge (talk) 10:31, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Our hanging article has the primary effect as: "Closure of carotid arteries causing cerebral hypoxia". Alansplodge (talk) 10:33, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

So, in contrast to the usual cliché, you could die with a silver spoon in your mouth. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:29, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

I'll note in passing that Tony in The Imaginarium of Doctor Parnassus used a similar trick, but with a metal tube. —Tamfang (talk) 01:12, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

I seem to recall that a similar ploy was used in an episode of Murdoch Mysteries, probably Season 3 Episode 37. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.209.121.112 (talk) 01:33, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Note that these examples all seem to be fictional. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:16, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Yes, the metal tube would need to be on the outside of your neck to be of any use. Anti-strangulation collars were the vogue during the London garrotting panics of the mid-19th century. Alansplodge (talk) 20:18, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

This links to an article on "Survival After Judicial Hanging". You have to pay to read it online, but the abstract is shown, and it reads in part: "Although several cases have been reported to survive after the attempted suicidal/accidental hanging, to the extent of our knowledge, no modern case of survival after judicial hanging exists. We reported a case of an individual who revived after modern judicial hanging despite being declared dead... The victim received all the standard supportive intensive care and gained complete clinical recovery." However, the article is limited to modern judicial hanging, cf. Chuntuk's remark above. --184.144.99.72 (talk) 05:40, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Ethnicity Statistics for American Library Association (ALA) Council

What are the ethnicity statistics for all members fo the American Library Association (ALA) Council as of 2021. Note, I am not referring to members of the ALA as a whole, rather members of the ALA Council specifically.2601:648:8800:E040:D57A:79C5:73CE:DDDE (talk) 21:00, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Again? DOR (HK) (talk) 00:53, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

I don't think anybody has collated statistics as such (at least not that I'm aware of), but you can make a fair guess at council members' ethnicity by looking at the list of council members [3], and their appearance and/or names. Alternatively, I suppose, you can email the association and ask? Eliyohub (talk) 09:04, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Court-martial offence

Walter Yates (cricketer) was dismissed from the RAF during the Second World War, but apparently the offence wasn't too severe, as he was taken back. However, the London Gazette doesn't say why he got the boot. Can someone enlighten me? Clarityfiend (talk) 22:52, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Why are you heading this "court-martial offence" when everything you say suggests it was not of that severity? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:54, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Because he was court martialled, as the article states and the London Gazette attests. Nanonic (talk) 23:55, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Indeed "Plt. Off. W. G. YATES (133694) is dismissed the Service by sentence of General Court Martial, 1st May 1943." {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.209.121.112 (talk) 01:39, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

I found out that he was aka Steve Yates[4] in case anyone can dig up a local newspaper article. Nanonic (talk) 00:24, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

It must have been rather serious to get rid of a trained pilot in the middle of a war. Alansplodge (talk) 20:20, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

No luck so far, but I found a photo of him here (centre) while posted to Burma, which many would have considered punishment enough. Alansplodge (talk) 20:36, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

September 7

Turkish reference help needed

Greetings,

The Draft:Avret Esir Pazarları about non-elite common women slavery in ottoman times is under development. Circassian women were among prime victims in those times still Circassian women author's own writings in English seem to be too limited. One latest (open access PDF) research paper discussing 'Circassian Nationalism, Feminism and Slavery in the Writings of Hayriye Melek Hunç' seems to have become available. But this research paper is in Turkish language so I am looking for help to find out if the research paper has any details about non-elite common women slavery in ottoman times , and if yes then need help in taking note of the same in Draft:Avret Esir Pazarları.

Thanks and warm regards

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 10:31, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Hello, Bookku. Have you thought of asking for help at WT:TURKEY? --ColinFine (talk) 12:29, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Verifying wartime Russian excesses

Many types of cruelties and excesses against women in peace time and war time may be real too. Historically what all Circassian women gone through too is saddening and one gets speechless while reading; Crimean, Turks and Russians known to have done immense excesses. While on one hand some times cruelties against women are so underplayed exposing becomes challenging and other hand there are opposite examples of over the board descriptions.

Just recently @ WP Women in Red I discussed one such example of over the board description of Russian excesses against German women. Just now I come across one over the board description of Russian excesses against Circassian women @ Circassia#Circassian Genocide. The sentence goes as bellow:

It has been recorded that Russian soldiers used various methods such as tearing the belly of pregnant women and removing the baby inside 'to entertain themselves'. I find the wording "to entertain themselves" bit doubt full needing verification.

There is one reference after next sentence and I am not sure how to verify this ref.

May be some one can help in verification.

Thanks and warm regards

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 12:10, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

In the WW2 Soviet campaign in Eastern Europe and Germany, it was notorious that the spearhead troops were elite and well-disciplined, while the second and third echelons were much lower quality in terms of military organization, and some of them practiced rape on a mass scale. Many of the soldiers in such formations were not actually ethnic Russians... AnonMoos (talk) 16:10, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

What I mentioned only seems to be covered on Wikipedia in two sentences of the Battle_of_Berlin article, but there could be a lot more said about it. I remember reading an account of a fanatical German female Communist who hid out in an old windmill or something during the last few weeks or months of the war. When she came out as the advancing Soviet troops finally arrived, they raped her... AnonMoos (talk) 20:57, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

@AnonMoos: Draft:Women, conflict and conflict zones and Draft:Sexual politics over women bodies all are serious topics, historically there seem to be number of anecdotes about excess on pregnant women as part of unfortunate Wartime violence against women. It's difficult what kind of people used to indulge in those. Human hate, anger, retribution etc. may be leading to such things.

Still I find even any extreme villain would entertain oneself with fetus from a pregnant woman to be bit far fetched.

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 18:37, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Don't know why you pinged me when your remarks had no real relevance to what I said. AnonMoos (talk) 22:06, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Mutilation of pregnant women/babies seems to be one of the standard accusations levelled at soldiers of enemy nations. See, for example, the Rape of Belgium by Germany for a lot of similar stories. I'm not saying that rapes and murders did not happen in Circassia (and Belgium!), but if we're going to repeat these lurid tales we need a decent source for them. The passage in question reads "It has been recorded that Russian soldiers used various methods such as tearing the belly of pregnant women and removing the baby inside to entertain themselves. Some Russian generals, such as Grigory Zass, argued that the killing of the Circassians and their use in scientific experiments should be allowed." None of this is verified by the cited source. At the very least it needs a "citation needed", but I'd be tempted to removed it altogether and start a discussion in the talk page.Chuntuk (talk) 22:15, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Yes I do agree, Thanks. Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 07:45, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Note that in our Cambodian genocide article we have a referenced statement that "Tortures were not only meant to force prisoners to confess but for the prison guards' amusement". However, I agree that a citation needed tag and a talk page discussion is the way forwards. Alansplodge (talk) 10:10, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

The use of "amusement" and "entertainment" in those circumstances is problematic on a couple of levels. My impression is that we're trying to separate those actions from other actions which may have been officially sanctioned or even ordered. In which case, we could use something like "done of their own volition" or "done without official approval" or something along those lines. But it does go a little deeper than that. Forgetting the war angle entirely for a bit, speaking to a person's state of mind is always going to be guesswork. Does a rapist "do it for entertainment"? We could only say by reading their minds. Again, it would be better to re-phrase to describe the situation rather than assuming the state of minds of people. "This happened under X and Y conditions." Matt Deres (talk) 15:47, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Citation in Grigory Zass to what appears to be a lament tren. fiveby(zero) 04:02, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

September 8

Kassia image

I'm afraid this may be a very difficult query, but does anyone know or is able to figure out any information on this image? (e.g. where it came from, who its by, etc.) Please ping me if so – Best Aza24 (talk) 07:17, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

The user who last uploaded it, Avalantis, last edited this past February, but it might be possible to send an email or post on their talk page, and see if they know anything. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:35, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

A reverse image search brings up results from websites all over the net, but none give a source. The image on alarmy.com says "in the public domain". Alansplodge (talk) 10:33, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

@Aza24: – The painting is signed: Διά χειρός Αγγελικής Τσέλιου — έτος 2012 (By the hand of Angeliki Tseliou – year 2012). Here is the painting on the artist's blog, with a caption identifying it as egg tempera on wood.  --Lambiam 14:18, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

WP:MCQ may be a good place to get more help with this... --Jayron32 15:18, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Thanks all! Hmm it is a bit concerning that the lead image for a Byzantine composer was made only a few years ago! I will likely need to replace it with something else. Best to all – Aza24 (talk) 22:24, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

The present image replaced a minuscule image of an icon in a more Byzantine style produced by the Parnitha Monastery. Some other icons of Kassia are also in a Byzantine style, but all appear to be recent.  --Lambiam 11:10, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

How did cucumbers come to be associated with the Christian concepts of resurrection and redemption?

In the article The Annunciation, with Saint Emidius, I read that "[t]he apple in the foreground represents the forbidden fruit and associated fall of man. The cucumber symbolizes the promise of resurrection and redemption." And while that may be interesting to know when thinking about LarryBoy and the Bad Apple, the cucumber fact begs the question above. – MrPersonHumanGuy (talk) 19:45, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Cucumbers being blessed at a Buddhist temple in Hawaii

This entry on an art history blog suggests that the artist in question used this cucumber-Christ symbolism a lot. Possibly nobody else ever did. Meanwhile, this list of signs and symbols representing God and the saints, under Gourd, mentions the same artist, and claims (somewhat desperately, I think) that the cucumbers are actually gourds, used for carrying water and hence reviving life, thus resurrection.  Card Zero  (talk) 20:47, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Asides from carrying water to revive life, the only other way I could substantially contrast cucumbers with Christ is that, while Christ is popularly believed to have offered himself so that his disciples (who he told to symbolically eat his flesh and blood) would be spared from eternal torment, cucumbers with peoples' names written on them are offered by wary people in Japan to kappas (who have to carry water in their heads, otherwise they are severely weakened) so they would be spared from being drowned for their literal flesh and blood. – MrPersonHumanGuy (talk) 00:11, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

There seems to be a fine line between "cukes" and "kooks". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:33, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

The item depicted in the painting resembles a large pickled gherkin, referred to where I come from as a "wally." This seems consistent with your analysis – see Wally (anonymous). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.193.129.71 (talk) 01:57, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Maybe the rare triple-toe wally? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:46, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

I don't know if the artist would have been aware of this but there is a similar symbolism in the Hindu Mahāmrityunjaya Mantra:

"We sacrifice to Tryambaka the fragrant, increaser of prosperity.

Like a cucumber from its stem, might I be freed from death, not from deathlessness."

This symbolises freedom from the birth - death - birth reincarnation cycle. -- Q Chris (talk) 09:32, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

An explanation different from those linked above—connecting the cucumber with the vine that grew over Jonah's head, which is, I must admit, the first religious thing that a cucumber suggested to me—is offered in a book about Crivelli here (paragraph beginning at the middle of column 1). How persuasive you find it is up to you. Deor (talk) 16:46, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

September 9

Question about moral argument

On forums (and sometimes even in real life) I see people argue that for those who join anti-lockdown protests, refuse to wear masks or deliberately reject vaccines, one logical punishment should be if they get the virus, they should be denied medical care (especially in countries where healthcare system is overwhelmed) or have to pay more for it (especially in countries where healthcare is normally free or heavily subsidised).

Is there a proper term for this moral argument? What are the main points for and against it?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.75.107.21 (talk • contribs)

Does the article Just-world hypothesis fit your needs? --Jayron32 12:10, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

That article (or subject) seems to me to be conflating several different ideas or assumptions: i) that there is some sort of universal force or law of nature (God, Karma, Providence, etc) that ensures that the bad are punished and the good rewarded; ii) that society will ensure that the bad are punished and the good rewarded; iii) that people can contribute to their own misfortune; iv) that due to one of these other notions, if someone suffers misfortune it must be their fault/deserved. What the IP is talking about would I think be concept iii (and a bit of iv), with the additional argument that therefore they should be denied or delayed assistance. I don't know if this notion has a specific name, but I think its sufficiently distinct from the "karma" concept of a Just World that it should have a name. Iapetus (talk) 14:11, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Well, in colloquial English, a better concept may be "just deserts", See here or here. The word "deserts" is an archaic word meaning roughly "what one deserves" and is preserved in this idiom almost exclusively (you never see this sense of "deserts" at any other time). The word "just" here is also a slightly-archaic usage (with some modern usage) that is basically the adjectival form of "justice". --Jayron32 14:46, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Just-world or even poetic justice seems more apt. The idiom fits to a tee i think, but in the context of desert (philosophy) wouldn't you have to ask what of those who joined protests, went mask-less, or not vaccinated and did not get the virus? fiveby(zero) 17:57, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Does Karma fit the bill? DOR (HK) (talk) 15:04, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Jayron32’s article seems a thorough discussion. For further reading: This idea of punishing people for their mistakes/ignorance/condition reminds me of making punitive hoops for people to get state financial assistance, for example. That led to the article workfare, which references a moral argument called “mutual obligation”. In workhouse, Crtl F for “insoluble dilemma” to read some discussion of Victorians not liking the idea that people considered less worthy could get as good (or better?) health care as others. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 18:34, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

A related idea is moral hazard, where people engage in more risky behavior if they don't bear the full cost of those risks. Refusing to provide medical care (or charging more) for people who refused to take coronavirus precautions could be a way to reduce or remove the moral hazard. --Amble (talk) 19:09, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Except that the target of those measures is a group of people who either believe that COVID-19 is a hoax or an exaggeration disseminated by the powers-that-be for some nefarious purpose. [5] Given they think that the virus poses no serious threat, they are unlikely to be worried by the prospect of not being treated for it. Alansplodge (talk) 23:15, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Until they catch it, and then it's too late. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:06, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

September 10

Genetic & linguistic shift due to mass importation of slaves

Greetings,

In human history in certain geographies and at certain times mass importation of slaves has taken place. I am curious to know are their any studies taken place on genetic & linguistic shift of communities in host geography over the centuries/decades.

That would happened in USA too to an extent but racial divide would have restricted cross racial marriages at least at initial stages. So I am more interested such countries in south America but more on Arab and Ottoman slave trade affected host (importing) countries of mediterranean, middle east, Turkey and central Asia where large slave imports took place and chance of marriages of imported slaves, their descendants and host slave importing population is/was very high. For example to what percentage genetic and linguistic make up of Turkey might have changed due to Ottoman time slave importing?

Whether any slavery related article on Wikipedia has taken note of any studies if taken place?

Thanks & Regards

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 03:14, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Abstaining from Voting on Issues as a Political Platform

Has any politician ever run with a platform that they pledge to abstain from voting on a certain issue? Not that they just ignore the issue, but that they outright state their decision to abstain.

Presumably, the political benefit would be that they could avoid highly divisive issues, such as abortion or gun control, that would cut down on votes. More altruistically, the reason could be something along the lines of: "I don't know the answer to this issue, so I'm leaving the decision up to others who do."

The closest example I could think of was Lawrence Lessig's plan to be a "referendum president", but that's still significantly different as it involved restricting himself to run on only a few issues, not a full platform with just a few planks taken out and would end with him leaving office if successful. –Noha307 (talk) 03:24, 10 September 2021 (UTC)